EZLN: Interview with Marcos (Jornada 8/25) (English)

[hmcleave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Harry M. Cleaver)]

This posting has been forwarded to you as a service of Accion Zapatista de 
Austin.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 21:38:19 -0500
From: CECILIA RODRIGUEZ <moonlight@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ncdm-usa@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Interview with Subcomandante Marcos (Jornada 8/25)

-------------- Enclosure number 1 ----------------
La Jornada August 25

It will not be a military coup, but rather an escalation with the PAN in front, 
he says

Carmen Libra, writer, Part 1, somewhere in the Lacandon jungle, in August

Surrounded, harassed, in almost total physical isolation, Marcos insists in 
talking
about the nation, in knowing "what its heart wants".

The plebiscite on this Sunday is one form, but there will be many others, he 
says,
because a "push" has to be made towards the construction of an alternative that
avoids having the country "go to shit like it is doing now".

This is clear to everyone, he stated, "except the government, which believes 
that it
can still handle the crisis", a crisis that in addition to being economic, is 
now political,
clearly, but --pay attention!--"not necessarily revolutionary", which,
instead of leading to
a transition to democracy, could be converted into a "reactionary crisis" and 
"take
the country into fascism, without necessarily a military coup".

The warning was made by the subcomandante of the EZLN in the first personal
interview given to the media since February 9th, when, --after the Attorney 
General
of the Republic revealed his alleged identity--he was converted into the most 
wanted
man in the country.  No one has seen him, besides his supporters, since that 
day in
February when the Attorney General insinuated, showing a photo of Rafael
Sebastian Guillen Vicente from Tabasco, that he had "unmasked Marcos".

"By the way", he added with his particular sense of humor which is hard to 
explain
how he still has it, " this story about the guy from Tabasco who has so ruined 
my
correspondence with women, is not true.  Write, write there that I am taller, 
stronger
and more handsome than what the Attorney General says, so that the girls will 
start
writing me again.  Okay?"

Just a few weeks before the National and International Plebiscite, which the 
EZLN
called for, Marcos left one of his refuges of the past few months to meet with 
the
reporters from La Jornada and to send a message to the country's civil society,
which is who, according to the judgment of the Zapatistas, should start to 
determine
the direction that the nation will take.

"The people have to understand that they have to participate, since if they 
don't, we
will lose, and if we lose, they lose; they have to understand that if we are 
defeated,
they are defeated", he said insistently.

"The democratic proposal should be made a reality, or instead, everything is 
going
to be even worse, if a coup takes place, which I talked about with you before 
and
that--I insist-- can be expected not from the federal Army but rather from the 
fascist
right".

--In whom are you thinking?

--In the most organized structure of the right which is the National Action 
Party
(PAN), not the Army--he said again and then expanded--the alternative of the 
right
for resolving this political crisis is not a coup in the classic sense of the 
word, which
is to say, that the military take power and begin to administer the government, 
which
is what is understood to be a military coup.  No: the most organized and best
prepared option of the right to capitalize on the crisis and carry out the 
reactionary
alternative is the National Action Party.  And they (the PAN members) are 
preparing
already, not for the year 2,000, but before.  The National Action Party is 
betting that
the regime, not just the PRI party-state, but the PRI regime will not last six 
years.

--In your judgment, how would the transnational capitalists view this?

--They are will to bet on a change in the regime, so they are supportive.  For 
this
reason the National Action Party winks at this sector, and appears to be 
saying: "I
can guarantee the  same economic process and resolve the political crisis".  
This is
the bet of the "slow, negotiated  transition",  and as examples there are Baja
California, Guanajuato, Chihuahua, Jalisco..."

Marcos held his pipe at the same time as his voice hardened: "With the 
imposition of
the fascist solution, people will lose hope, and when they kill your hope, they 
don't
have to kill you ...If this happens, then they can do what they want with this 
country:
take the oil, let's go..to the national toilet!"

The subcomandante guerrilla tried to clarify what the Zapatistas are hoping for 
from
the civil society:

"Now we don't just want sympathies.  That all of these men and women who since
January 1994 have said NO to the war,  understand  that we are on the same side,
and that whatever  affects us, affects many others, in fact affects the 
struggle for a
transition to democracy.  In other words, the failure or the success of this 
plebiscite,
among other aims, will not be ours alone".

--How will the success of the plebiscite be defined?

--In that it takes away the use of weapons from both sides, and that the 
discussion
stay completely within the political terrain.  In other words, by means of the
plebiscite, neither one of the armies would be able to use weapons: this would 
be an
achievement for the plebiscite, the Dialogue at San Andres, and the entire peace
process in Chiapas.

--Is success also going to be measured by the number of participants?

Supporting himself against the trunks that make up the sides of the bench,
constructed recently for the interview, Marcos explains:

--We will have two criteria to evaluate it: first, whether the plebiscite was 
really
national, whether it includes if not all of the states in the Republic, then at 
least the
majority of them at a significant level.  This would be an achievement, even if 
it is
less than the general election.  And then, whether the level of voting in this 
plebiscite
is greater than those of the last two (the one that was done against the 
government
of Carlos Salinas, which had 600,000 votes, and the one on the National Plan for
Development, which had 300,000 votes).  For this reason it is important to the 
EZLN
that the 10,000 tables for voting are set up, as planned by the Civic Alliance,
throughout the country.

--I get the impression that this referendum, plebiscite, or consult, as all of 
you call it,
has the aim of opening a new dialogue.  Would this one replace the one that has
been conducted with the government?

--Look, I think that the EZLN, and in general whatever opposition force, does 
not
have any reason to dialogue with the government.  It is not going to achieve
anything, except put off the confrontation.  In addition, the alternative that 
we are
seeking is not going to come from the government or from the political parties 
or
from the EZLN.  It will come from something new.  What is that?  I don't know.  
For
this reason we have to talk and talk and talk about these things, with those 
people
with whom since January 1994 we are in synchrony.

--Marcos, then what is the plebiscite?

--The plebiscite is like a thermometer and makes up part of something that is 
going
to start to function or that is already working: this type of dialogue is very 
primitive,
as primitive as you talk--I listen to you--and I take it in.  This is not to 
say that
necessarily there has to be plebiscites, consultations or referenda constantly;
perhaps we will find other ways.  But when we omit the government and we begin 
to
talk directly, perhaps we will find other ways.

--The process of a referendum, for example, is not considered as part of our 
laws.
The government and the majority of the media, with their silence, could 
disparage it,
arguing that the process is illegal, that it doesn't count.

--That's probable, but they can't stop it.  They don't have any credibility to 
do that
anymore.  In addition I think that the principal force of the plebiscite is in 
its
organization, in all of the efforts that are being made to carry it out.  The 
other
important part is that someone, whatever citizen,  would take the time to get 
an ID
and to spend the few moments on August 27th to answer some questions, with the
confidence that his or her opinion was going to count in the final tally.

I noticed that the Subcomandante appeared optimistic, almost excited:

--Do you believe that many people are going to participate?

--I don't know how many is many people--he responded between laughs, I suppose
because for the first time he did not respond with his classic "a shitload"-- 
Look, I
see it in stages:  if they begin to move to organize it, we will view that as a 
good
sign.  If we are able to bring together again the former Convention, that will 
be good
too.  Or in other words, if at least the six thousand who went to 
Aguascalientes again
become active again.

--There are those who say that one thing is that the people sympathize with the
Zapatista cause, and it is another if they become involved.  Aren't you betting 
a lot
on the "civic society"?

--And why not bet on it, if they have showed us on several occasions what they 
are
capable of.  In addition, look: we are at a point of indecision, at an impasse 
in which
the society in general is going to determine who yes and who no...

--Don't you find this civil society still very disorganized and a little slow?

-And yet they move--he responded with a sly look--All you have to do is look at 
the
young people. The young people, for us, have been a surprise.  We thought that 
we
were going to confront an urban youth who were completely brainwashed, selfish,
completely alienated through years of being bombarded by the media.  And 
contrary
to the image that we had of them, we have found youth who are very aware, very
critical and very committed.

"The same thing happened for us with the women, and as a result the largest 
part of
the solidarity and sympathy with the EZLN comes from women, whom we also can
not divide into strata: whether they are workers or middle-class.  No: they are
women.  And a big quarrel that the Zapatista Army had was the participation of
women, because of its indigenous base.  This was a very hard struggle; there 
were
no concessions.  For this reason when the sixth question for the plebiscite was
proposed, it gained support immediately  among the companeras, and even among
the companeros who have seen that the greatest help in the caravans, in the
Convention and in the peace camps came from the women".

The women, he said with a certain air of satisfaction, share with the young 
people, in
general, men and women, an altruism  and an impressive capacity for work.

Marcos said that one time, watching them work, he commented: "I have not seen
cadres more developed as cadres (which is to say more dedicated) than those who
are not members of a political party.  To many of the men and women--he said
craftily-- we should have given them a military rank.

(translated by Cindy Arnold, National Center for Democracy, Liberty and Justice)




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