We don't need third pro-capitalist party - Interview with SWP presidential candidate James Harris on WNYC radio

[Laura Kamienski <tkd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

A socialist newsweekly published in the interests of working people
Vol. 64/No. 39October 16, 2000

'Working people need to take political power'
Interview with SWP presidential candidate James Harris on WNYC radio
(feature article)

The following is an edited transcript of a September 26 interview with
James Harris, Socialist Workers candidate for U.S. president, on the New
York City radio station WNYC, an affiliate of National Public Radio. The
interview was conducted by Brian Lehrer, host of WNYC's On the Line
program, which also took calls from listeners.

Lehrer: Right now, the presidential candidate of the Socialist Workers
Party, James E. Harris.

With some "Marx was right" banners being prominently displayed by
protesters in Prague this morning at the anti-IMF/World Bank meeting,
maybe the timing of this appearance is right. Thanks for joining us Mr.
Harris. Good morning.

Harris: Good morning. I'm glad to be here.

Lehrer: We've done this before, haven't we?

Harris: Yes, we have.

Lehrer: And with little to show for your past efforts at running for
president, you're still at it.

Harris: I don't know you can say there is little to show. We direct our
message to the working class as a whole, which is mounting resistance to
the increasingly brutal conditions that exist in the country today, even
with the so-called economic boom or economic miracle that is taking
place. More and more working people are wondering why they are not
included in it. They have said, "Enough. We must begin to fight." That's
who we address.

Capitalism, not IMF, is the problem
Lehrer: Are you paying attention to the Prague demonstrations this
morning? Is this an issue that concerns you--the IMF [International
Monetary Fund] and the World Bank?

Harris: The IMF and World Bank aren't the central problems working
people face. Here is the reason why: The central problem working people
face is capitalism itself and the expansion of capitalism during this
so-called economic miracle in this country. The IMF and the World Bank
are merely tools of the capitalist system, tools of the predominant
imperialist powers in the world, like the United States, Britain,
France, Germany, and Belgium. I think when we talked before, one of the
things I pointed out was that the issue is not a vague "globalization."
The issue is imperialism.

Imperialism is based upon nation-states. It includes conflicts between
imperialist powers, conflicts with the Third World nations and working
people who live there, and conflicts with the working class in their own
countries.

Lehrer: Interesting. A lot of people on the left today say it's not so
much about nation-states anymore, but about corporate power, and
corporations--especially in the global era--becoming less accountable to
the governments of nation-states.

Harris: Well, yes. That is one of the things I very much disagree with.
That is why we use the term imperialism to describe the social and
economic relations in the world rather than globalization. We want to
pinpoint what the real problems are. The United States is the dominant
imperialist power in the world. It dominates the United Nations, the
World Bank, and other such institutions. It runs them in conflict with
other imperialist powers, such as Canada or Great Britain, or France or
Germany. It runs them both in conflict with their competitors on a world
scale and in partnership with them against the Third World and the
working class as a whole.

Lehrer: And who runs the United States?

Harris: The United States is run by a small handful of super-rich ruling
families, about the same 60 families that have run the United States for
over a century. It is run by wealth. There are class divisions in the
United States that are on the increase. The gap between the rich and
poor in the United States is on the increase. Real wages have been
declining.

The source of the capitalist boom or upturn in the economy is what the
employers have imposed on workers: increasing working hours, worsening
of conditions among immigrant laborers, and a significant increase in
the intensification of labor. This is happening at the same time real
wages have continued to go down.

Lehrer: This is On the Line at AM 820, WNYC. My guest is the Socialist
Workers Party candidate for president of the United States, as we
continue to fulfill our pledge to have every candidate on the ballot in
New York State for at least one appearance on the program. We can take a
few phone calls for candidate James Harris at (212) 267-9292 as we
continue to get his views.

If you were president and had a compliant Congress, what is the first
law you might try to enact?

Harris: Our campaign points out that working people in the United States
advance our interests through our own struggles. Gains we have made have
only been through the fights we have engaged in. These have often been
reflected in Congress and legislation. It is not voting or who is
elected to office that decides these questions. Working people need to
extend our organization, both through unionization of the working class
as a whole, and through political organization, which is needed in order
to break from the Democrats and Republicans and the two-party system.
These are parties that represent the rich, not working people.

Lehrer: Ralph Nader has caught the imagination of much of the
disenfranchised left in America this year as an alternative party
candidate. What do you think about Ralph Nader?

Harris: One of the problems of the Nader campaign is that it aims to
push the Democratic Party to the left. It is not a break with the
Democrats, but it acts as a left wing of that party. The Democrats and
the Republicans are part of a two-party system. The Nader campaign and
the Green Party fit within the framework of the two-party system.

The problem with the two-party system is not that the two parties don't
differ--they couldn't get people to vote for them if they didn't differ
a little bit--but the problem is that it constantly poses a "lesser
evil" to head off the independent organization of the working class
outside of the parties of the rich.

What is needed is a real working-class political party that puts forward
a program in opposition to the rich and uncompromisingly advances the
interests of all working people in common with our brothers and sisters
around the world.

Caller: I had two questions. The first is that, given the reality that
either Bush or Gore is going to win the election, which of the two
candidates do you favor as most in line with the needs you see. The
second question is, who are the 60 families who run the United States?

Harris: The ruling class in the United States are real people and
families with names, such as Rockefeller, Du Pont, Gates, and others.
They are the multibillionaire families that through their social
position, wealth, ownership of the means of production, and connections
actually run the United States.

When working people begin to confront the fact that we can't change the
United States and government policy just through electoral politics and
voting, they begin to ask themselves: who is in control and why? Who
profits from the big rise in oil prices? Who owns the oil companies? Who
owns the basic industry in the United States that determines the lives
of millions and millions of people? Who decides and profits when the
United States intervenes through war and other means around the world?
Why give $1.3 billion to Colombia? It has to do with the opposing
interests of the ruling class in the United States and those of the
working class.

Caller: I'd like to ask Mr. Harris about what he thinks about the
attacks on immigrants in Farmingville, Long Island.

Harris: I'm glad you asked that question. I think the whole labor
movement should be involved in protesting this attack on the rights of
immigrants and the attempt to murder two workers last week. The United
States government is responsible for this, with their laws and
propaganda that aim to criminalize this whole section of the population.
Their aim is to make it a pariah layer in order to justify low wages,
intolerable working conditions, and denial of democratic rights.

The Clinton administration spearheaded the passage of the Illegal
Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. It took
constitutional rights away from massive numbers of immigrant workers. It
helped to criminalize them, giving a green light to right-wing attacks
upon them.

Immigrant workers are a boon to the working class in the United States
because they help bring combativity and more class consciousness to it.
The aim of the ruling class is to keep the working class divided and at
the same time keep immigrant workers in a position so they can be
superexploited. But they are joining the fightback, asserting their
rights and human dignity.

We don't need third pro-capitalist party
Caller: Mr. Harris, good morning. I'm wondering if you don't think that
you are really doing a disservice to the overall movement by really
taking a small splinter away from Ralph Nader's programs and his
platform. In light of the fact that due to whatever the circumstances,
fortuitous or otherwise, he's got such excellent name recognition, his
candidacy would stand a much better chance if all the various
organizations that stand for the same principles united behind it. What
are your thoughts on that?

Harris: One of the reasons I never talk about a third party is that we
don't need a third party. What we need is an absolute class break from
the parties of the rich. Ralph Nader's party, the Green Party, views
itself as a party that is a pressure on the Democratic Party. What we
need is a class break from them....

Caller: But you are wrong on that. Your supposition is incorrect on
that. The fundamental fact is that the Green Party has an international
foundation, it is a real party, it has elected people in foreign
countries and...

Harris: As long as the working class is in the position of subordinating
its political needs to various capitalist parties, parties that think
that capitalism can be reformed, then we are in a trap and we're not
moving forward as a class.

What is the fundamental thing that is needed by the working class? The
fundamental thing needed by the working class is independent
organization on our part as a class to begin to put forward the demands
of our class. It is not a man on a white horse. It is not the Green Party.

Workers are resisting the assault by the government and the employers in
many ways. There are a growing number of strikes and attempts to
organize a union. There are struggles and demonstrations. There is the
beginnings of a social movement in the coalfields by mine workers, other
working people, and youth.

The logic of this is to transform our unions into fighting instruments
and establish our own political organization based on the experiences of
our struggles and our organizations. We need to organize to take
political power and put a workers and farmers government in place. We
need revolutionary change. That's what we bring to politics.

Lehrer: If capitalism can't be reformed, how far would you go? What
would you replace it with? What would the society look like?

Harris: We are a revolutionary party. We think what is needed is a
workers and farmers government that can lead the fight to overturn
capitalism and lead tens of millions of people to start constructing a
socialist society, based on cooperation with the rest of humanity. This
is the only way forward for the working class.

Capitalism will lurch more and more toward crisis. Even in these times
of the so-called economic miracle, the worsening conditions working
people face are literally forcing us to engage in more strikes and
struggles, such as there are among meat packers, unionized workers, and
workers struggling for a union.

Lehrer: Is there a country in the world that is similar to the system
that you envision?

Harris: The one country we talk about as an example for working people
is Cuba. We point out what has been gained there and the revolutionary
change necessary for it to come about. I recently went to Cuba, for
example, with a group of farmers who are interested in Cuba because
there have been no farm foreclosures there for 42 years since the
revolution, which enacted a massive land reform. Look at their ability
to send doctors throughout the world. Their ability to engage in an
actual fight against apartheid in South Africa when it invaded Angola.
Cuba is an example for working people to look toward, to study, and to
get past the lies that are told about Cuba by the U.S. government. These
are some of the reasons the U.S. government doesn't want people to go
there and see it.

Lehrer: A lot of poverty in Cuba, no?

Harris: Well, Cuba is a Third World country. A lot of poverty was
imposed by what the United States carried out in Cuba before the
revolution and since the revolution with the economic blockade. I would
encourage you to compare Cuba to the rest of Latin America and other
Third World countries in what it is able to assure for its citizens. But
Cuba is a poor country. The fact that it is poor doesn't mean it can't
be an example for those wanting to find a way to struggle forward and
how working people can live our lives with dignity, some honor, and free
of exploitation.

Lehrer: This has been James E. Harris, presidential candidate of the
Socialist Workers Party, as we continue to have every candidate who is
on the ballot before election day, November 7. Mr. Harris, thank you so
much.

Harris: Thank you.

[Jacob Perasso, SWP candidate for Senate in New York, will be on
Lehrer's show October 11 at 11:15 a.m.]