RE: [Fwd: Re: Unfortunately for us, Wordsworth lived in better times]

["Mark Jones" <jones118@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Katha, it is not pointful to attribute to me things I have not said, unless
your only purpose is to engage in mortal combat with figments of your own
imagination. I haven't said anything one way or the other about Serbia's
defence of specific values or principles.

You say "Nationalism is the enemy -- on all sides". This begs some
questions. What is this enemy, Nationalism-in-general, a kind of ghost in
the historical machinery? Is all nationalism everywhere and at all times
'the enemy'? The *idea* of nationalism is the enemy? You surely don't mean
that. What you mean is, it's OK to support American nationalism when the
enemy is Hitler (I hope you mean that anyway). It's not OK to support
Serbian nationalism. And it's not OK to support Nato nationalism. You are
equally opposed to both things. They are equally abhorrent to you. Actually,
Serbian nationalism is even worse than Nato nationalism, yes? In any case,
the answer to human trafficking from the east is *to oppose all forms of
nationalism, even-handedly*. And since you oppose all nationalism, it's
enough to say that and to be done with the specifics of Nato nationalism,
and the moral disorders it visits upon its client states and its cowed
former enemies, yes? You have nothing to say about any of that, because you
are opposed to 'all nationalism everywhere'. We do not need to look any
closer. There are no possible questions which can be asked about the forces
and narratives that constitute any particular nationalism, especially
western nationalism, or how nationalism enables/is entailed by the modern
world system, or whether some nations are oppressors and other victims, and
others are both, sometimes at the same time, and how we must deal with the
reality that a nation can be both oppressor and victim, and still exist as a
nation and enjoy no less legitimacy than others, which are only oppressors,
or only victims. Before making any statements about 'nationalism in general'
we should think about these kidns of specifics.

In *practice* we should oppose things that our opposition makes some
difference to. It's more sensible to act where we have a chance to change
something than just tilt at (Serbian) windmills. So we might agree to oppose
the failures and inadequacies of our own states, where we have some say,
even if only the right to vote or persuade others to vote, yes? Surely it is
pointful for us to *also* campaign about the near-silence and seeming
inactivity of Nato government's law enforcement agencies and criminal
justice systems about the tide of wretched enslaved humanity being brought
like cattle from places like Kosovo to the west? But no, I don't think you
think so.

I'm gonna have to unsub, I have too much work to do and I don't think we
have much chance of reasoned debate. Carrol, remind me how to unsub from
here?


Mark Jones
http://www.egroups.com/group/CrashList


> -----Original Message-----
> From: m-fem-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:m-fem-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Katha Pollitt
> Sent: 12 June 2000 18:44
> To: M-Fem@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [Fwd: Re: Unfortunately for us, Wordsworth lived in better
> times]
>
>
> Mark Jones wrote:
> >
>
> > When I said you are a Nato-supporter this was hotly denied,
> even by yourself
> > I think. But what you do when you call upon Serb/Yugoslav men
> to deser tis
> > to give aid and comfort to Nato.
>
>   I would be interested  to know if others on this also think that men
> who refuse to fight in the Serbian Army are  giving "aid and comfort to
> Nato," fostering forced trafficking of women, contributing to the ruin
> of Eatern Europe and all the rest.  I am also interested in people's
> thoughts on the Serbian peace movement, the Women in Black and other
> opponents of Milosevic. Are they traitors to the cause of
> anti-imperialism, gender equality, and the other things mark argues
> Serbia is defending? I think those people are heroes, along with their
> Croatian, Bosnian and Kosovan counterparts. Nationalism is the enemy --
> on all sides.
>
> Katha
>