'White Liberal Guilt'? (was Re: Prof. combats ignorance aboutIslam, women]]]]

["Charles Brown" <CharlesB@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

>>> Yoshie Furuhashi <furuhashi.1@xxxxxxx> 08/20/99 03:40PM >>>
>>>>> Katha Pollitt <kpollitt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 08/20/99 07:52AM >>>
>>And talk about "liberalism" -- it's just white liberal guilt in lefty
>>clothes.
>The problem of White guilt in the 60's and 70's is way overstated in
>current political discourse. White supremacy does not float around on its
>own without people to have it. We need a lot more sense of White guilt
>today as it produced a lot better politics when it was more prevalent. One
>of the main tasks of Reaganism was to wipe out White sense of guilt.
>Charles Brown

I thought the original question was about how best to extend our solidarity
to women -- especially activists for women's rights -- in other countries,
more specifically about whether criticizing Islam from here helps women in
the countries where Islam is the dominant religion in any way objectively.
However, most posts seem to avoid this question and revolve around 'white
liberal guilt.'  If that's what people want to talk about, at least a
change in the subject line is in order.

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Charles: I admit to parenthetical commenting, without attention to the larger thread theme.

Seems to me religion is similar to nationalism or part of it. In the context of national anti-colonial and anti-imperialist movments, it can play a mixed role. Even though Marx did speak somewhat concretely about religion, as Jennifer suggests, his approach probably provides some incite in religion in  general. On the other hand, with respect to Islam, from what little I know, it seems that it has played the opposite role of that of an opiate sometimes.

On the third hand, from my limited understanding, Islam seems to have some of the same male supremacy as Christianity.

As Yoshie says in a summary (other) post to this point, Marxists in imperialist countries should probably focus on anti-imperialism first in considering male supremacy in neo-colonial nations. The best we can do for all around social progress in most other places is get imperialism off of the countries' backs, and rely on the oppressed classes of those nations to arrive at progressive social agendas in the process of class liberation. We may be progressives, but our voices mix in with the whole Ugly Americanism from the standpoint of the rest of the world.

By the way, this issue arises in analogy, with White American feminists criticizing Black American male supremacy. Frankly, my experience is that Black women resent this in general. White American feminists must deal with their racism "first". Despite the validity of some of the White feminists' criticisms of Black men, it just doesn't work for Black women at this point. These are generalizations, of course, and there are more and more Black women raising feminist critiques, but take these comments for what they are worth from someone who has observed this issue very empirically ( and as a feminist; I explicitly bill myself as a Black male feminist in may community communication on talk radio and in local political discourse)

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Yoshie:
That said, I doubt the objective significance of what is called 'white
liberal guilt.'  And I doubt that agreeing with concervatives on the
allegedly nefarious existence and sinister power of 'white liberal guilt'
is a progressive thing to do.  'White liberal guilt' is another name for
'political correctness' in the conservative lexicon.  Inveighing against is
a form of moralism we should avoid.  A big waste of time.

Charles: "White liberal guilt" IS a conservative buzz phrase, so I wouldn't propose that Marxists take it up. I was making a "vulgar"comment, using "dirty" language to get at a kernel of truth about the retrogression of the left in its understanding of racism and the relationship between white and black radicals.

 Perhaps it is better said that white radicals should have a special sense of militancy and responsibility in fighting racism. I think the white radicals who declared they would follow Black leadership were expressing this in a crude form. One of the outstanding accomplishments of the Communist Party for its first 30 years of existence was the respect it gained in the Black community for anti-racist struggle. U.S. Communists gained the honorable stereotype as the most anti-racist white people. Today's Marxists should aim for an updated version of this.

I don't favor guilt much as a wholesale method of motivating political action, though we may be back at the old "shaming" discussion with Andy A.


CB