Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
critical-realism-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
You can reach the person managing the list at
critical-realism-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29, Issue 23 (Alan Norrie)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:42:12 +0000
From: Alan Norrie <alan.norrie@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29,
Issue 23
To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
<critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20070315151449.04034eb0@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Dear Phil and Mervyn,
Could I dip my toes in this discussion?
I was pleased to see Bhaskar's magisterial, sweeping account of the nature
of dialectical critical realism quoted in Phil's email, then realised it
was the sentence that won the bad writing prize....
Seriously, I think there are two points about the sentence, one concerning
its form, the other its content. As regards its form, I would personally
wanted to have written it in a way that I felt communicated better what it
is saying to its audience. I would break it up into shorter sentences. As
regards its content, I find it makes sense as a summary of many of the
arguments that Bhaskar has made in his dialectical work in Dialectic: the
Pulse of Freedom and in Plato Etc. People who laugh at the sentence may
therefore do so for two reasons. One is it's a bad sentence, the other is
that they don't understand (all) its terms and baulk at their sweep. I
don't think they should laugh for the second reason, but rather should
consider what he is trying to say and why they should be mocking it.
Phil may say, well why use all these terms like 'ontological monovalence',
or what does it mean to speak of Hegel's 'actualist monovalent analytic
reinstatement in transfigurative reconciling dialectical connection'? It's
an unhelpful mouthful, true, but Bhaskar does explain exactly what he
means by these terms in DPF, and some close attention to that text, which
again is not without its difficult sentences, would explain it.
Andrew Sayer has written about the 'Niagara of neologisms' in Bhaskar's
dialectical work, but I do think you have to put that comment in the
context of what Bhaskar has tried to achieve there. His ambition is to
rethink western philosophy, by synthesising two great philosophies, and if
that involves casting new terms to do so, I say fair enough.
Bhaskar gets some of the same kind of flak as Derrida (who is also good on
neologisms) in the Anglo-American world, where the analytical tradition is
frequently ungenerous to those who think that philosophy has to involve
more than plain sentences grounded in a present and essentially
unchangeable world. All modern dialectical thinkers from Kant and Hegel
onwards are open to criticism for their obscurity. Maybe the obscurity
their thought reflects says something about our world.
That's not to say that shorter sentences would not be a good thing, but I
don't think we should get too hung up on criticisms of this kind. Accept
what is valid in them, but make the counter-points which are more
important.
All best,
Alan
At 13:45 15/03/2007, you wrote:
>Hi Mervyn
>
> I agree with most of what you said. Sure, I think some people will
> always try to dismiss what they find politically objectionable. I also
> agree, as Andrew Collier has said, that the reality we are dealing with
> is itself very complex, so the writing reflects that. But some of the
> people I speak to are people who might otherwise be very sympathetic to
> CR politics, but just find the style too obscure. It wasn't for no
> reason that this piece taken from "Plato Etc" won first prize in a
> philosophy and literature bad writing contest:
>
> "Indeed dialectical critical realism may be seen under the aspect of
> Foucauldian strategic reversal--of the unholy trinity of
> Parmenidean/Platonic/Aristotelean provenance; of the
> Cartesian-Lockean-Humean-Kantian paradigm, of foundationalisms (in
> practice, fideistic foundationalisms) and irrationalisms (in practice,
> capricious exercises of the will-to-power or some other ideologically
> and/or psycho-somatically buried source) new and old alike; of the
> primordial failing of western philosophy, ontological monovalence, and
> its close ally, the epistemic fallacy with its ontic dual; of the
> analytic problematic laid down by Plato, which Hegel served only to
> replicate in his actualist monovalent analytic reinstatement in
> transfigurative reconciling dialectical connection, while in his
> hubristic claims for absolute idealism he inaugurated the Comtean,
> Kierkegaardian and Nietzschean eclipses of reason, replicating the
> fundaments of positivism through its transmutation route to the
> superidealism of a Baudrillard."
>
> Now I myself am not from an academic background. I'm a working class
> person brought up on a housing estate in Manchester who is trying to
> draw on radical philosophy in order to better understand the system and
> how to change it. While I have found much of CR very helpful to that
> end, I have found some of it positively mystifying, and the passage
> above quoted is a case in point. It is not helpful.
>
>by the way, the bad writing contest was taken from
>here:http://www.as.miami.edu/phi/misc/badwrite.htm
>
>cheers
>Phil.
>
>
>On Mar 15 2007, critical-realism-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
>>Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>> critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> critical-realism-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>You can reach the person managing the list at
>> critical-realism-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
>>
>>Today's Topics:
>> 1. Re: Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29, Issue 18
>> (gdemetrion@xxxxxxx)
>> 2. Re: Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29, Issue 21 (Mervyn
>> Hartwig)
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Message: 1
>>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:29:52 -0400
>>From: <gdemetrion@xxxxxxx>
>>Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29,
>> Issue 18
>>To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID:
>> <BAY103-DAV37F41D297EAC22611ADFBC5730@xxxxxxx> Content-Type:
>> text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks Mervyn, I hear that. As opposed
>> to "my school of thought is better than yours" approach, the point that
>> I am making is that both critical realism and what I will refer to as
>> critical pragmatism share great deal in terms of their appreciation of
>> fallibilism, emphasis on scientific and critical human inquiry
>> (especially Dewey on their conjoining), and the dialectical
>> post-positive philosophy they mediate between positivism and both
>> constructivism and postmodernism. There also has been some work in
>> pragmatist studies on the relationship with postmodernism, but I have
>> seen very little to no discourse on the relationship between pragmatism
>> and critical realism (particularly the second generation, so to speak,
>> as Sellars' work (first generation) has been addressed at least in
>> part. In terms of critical social theory, perhaps one could say that
>> critical pragmatism veers toward a reformist (meliorist) emphasis while
>> critical realism veers (at least in theory) toward a more radical
>> emphasis. Exceptions abound. I first heard of Bhaskar in an article on
>> organizational development, but perhaps, as borne in the US reform
>> tradition of the late 19th-early 20th centuries, pragmatism reflects
>> more of that ethos while, perhaps critical realism reflects a more
>> radical political ideology. On that, I offer up my essay, Reading
>> Giroux (a radical educational scholar) through a Deweyan Lens; Pushing
>> Utopia to the Outer Edge.
>> (http://www.nald.ca/FULLTEXT/George/reading/cover.htm) Note, "outer
>> edge," not out of the picture. Intuitively speaking I am assuming there
>> is a great deal of depth in both pragmatism and critical realism which
>> perhaps share more affinities than differences, without discounting the
>> latter, which may be worth additional attention. George Demetrion -----
>> Original Message ----- From: Mervyn Hartwig Sent: Wednesday, March 14,
>> 2007 7:26 AM To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List Subject: Re:
>> [Critical-Realism] Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29, Issue 18 Points
>> taken, but it seems to me you're adding to the problem with
>> incantations of cult-like image and lack of seriousness with which CR
>> is taken. Re seriousness, there's lively interest in CR on a global
>> scale in many disciplines across the humanities and social sciences,
>> and it's growing. Philosophers to be sure haven't by and large taken it
>> very seriously, but this too is changing. Re 'reaching out', CR has
>> developed via immanent critique of the major discourses of
>> post/modernity at many levels and is wholly open to engagement, e.g.
>> the recent debate in the pages of Journal of Critical Realism re
>> transcendental arguments. Mervyn
>>
>>------------------------------
>>Message: 2
>>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:23:32 -0000
>>From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29,
>> Issue 21
>>To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Message-ID: <000d01c766ec$236c65d0$0200000a@DJC3CP0J>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=response Hi Phil I don't think it's a question of
>> image but of substance. Those who go on about cults and 'wholly
>> inaccessible style' (and perhaps this is more accentuated in Belfast
>> than elsewhere) really mean that they don't like what it's saying or
>> what they know of it. It's philosophically revolutionary, seeking to
>> effect a paradigm shift, and it's through and through emancipatory. Why
>> expect the mainstream to like that? Shall we change it to please the
>> mainstream? It won't command common consent within the academy until
>> the academy itself embraces the need for far-reaching social change.
>> But how can it be 'wholly inaccessible' given its already widespread
>> appeal? If the dialecticised version is meant, there are a growing
>> number of people who by no means find it inaccessible. The dictionary
>> is on about, not fixing an image problem, but making it easier to come
>> to grips with the system as a whole and raising its reception to a
>> higher level. Mervyn
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <pohanlon03@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, March 14,
>> 2007 7:48 PM Subject: [Critical-Realism] Re: Critical-Realism Digest,
>> Vol 29, Issue 21
>>
>> Mervyn thanks. I don't mean to add to it - I'm just conveying general
>> sentiments of people I come into contact with, some of whom are reputed
>> scholars both within and outside of CR. Seriously, it wasn't an
>> incantation and I think that is unfair. CR has an image problem and
>> this is something that frustrates me perhaps as much as it does
>> yourself. I don't think it is impertinent to raise the issue. I hear
>> time and again about Bhaskar's wholly inaccessible style, which I'm
>> told sometimes seems like he is talking to himself. And these
>> criticisms have come from leading CR-ers. Your own dictionary is surely
>> aimed at helping us to work through that - which is great! Other
>> reputed CR's have argued against the idea of having a Journal of CR as
>> this means less exposure and means more talking amongst "ourselves". I
>> think CR-ers should aim to publish elsewhere too, as I am sure they are
>> doing. If CR is growing then that is great. I want it to. I very much
>> doubt that anything I say on the matter will influence events any way
>> at all. But if we are confident of its appeal then we needn't be too
>> sensitive to a bit of self-criticism. cheers Phil.
>>
>>On Mar 14 2007, critical-realism-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>> > Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>> > critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > critical-realism-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > critical-realism-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. RE: Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29, Issue 18 (Dave Taylor)
>> >
>> >
>>
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:29:44 -0000
>> > From: "Dave Taylor" <dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Subject: RE: [Critical-Realism] Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29,
>> > Issue 18
>> > To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
>> > <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <mailman.8220.1173874947.20350.critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> > Phil
>> >
>> > The criticism of CR-ists that I've heard is that they tend to be >
>> cliquish, but this is a problem of group dynamics - insiders and >
>> outsiders - rather than CR. What CR with its emphasis on "tendencies"
>> > doesn't encourage is writing off others "entirely" on account of >
>> anything: that really is much more likely to be in the eye of the >
>> beholder. Perhaps I'm responsible for your apparent aversion to the >
>> argument from personality types to the tendency for sensory types not
>> > to be able to see what in Hume's sense is not directly sensible, and
>> > for feeling types to tend not to see what they don't already want
>> to. I > would defend such conclusions in terms at once of a long
>> lifetime's > personal experience, more than half a century of
>> Myers-Briggs empirical > findings and my own professional experience
>> and understanding of serial > and [probabilitistic] parallel logics and
>> physical actualisations > thereof. You will note that the arguments -
>> as against the summary > conclusions - are not "entirely" in terms of
>> inability, and in fact > Myers-Briggs findings too are very much in
>> terms of tendencies. I > wouldn't blame other CR-ists for these
>> arguments because I have always > had difficulty in getting them to
>> stray that far from Bhaskar's path.
>> >
>> > CR-ists might take time to reflect on the need for "triangulation" >
>> here: whether what they see reflects reality or their imagination can
>> > be decided by direct argument, or whether side-effects are crucial -
>> > these coming out wrong way round in a reflection, as when money
>> rather > than aptness becomes the measure of value. In any case, I
>> myself became > a Critical Realist not just because of Bhaskar's
>> transcendental > arguments but because other paths point to the same
>> truths. I travel > the well-marked CR road to express and enjoy
>> solidarity with the kindly > folks I have encountered heading that way.
>> >
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message----- From: >
>> critical-realism-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >
>> [mailto:critical-realism-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of >
>> pohanlon03@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 13 March 2007 22:40 To: >
>> critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: *** SPAM *** >
>> [Critical-Realism] Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29, Issue 18
>> >
>> > Mervyn
>> >
>> > thanks- yes, but I would guess the two are not mutually exclusive. >
>> Part of the problem might be that CRists don't do enough to "reach out"
>> > to engage wth other currents, in order that they might help to remove
>> > the negative image. At least this is the feedback I'm getting. But I
>> > don't think it is helpful to account for the lack of seriousness with
>> > which CR is taken entirely in terms of the inability of others to
>> "see" > the truth of CR, which is what I think some CR's sometimes tend
>> to do. > It's a two-way street.
>> >
>> > cheers
>> > Phil.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mar 13 2007, critical-realism-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>> >
>> > > Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>> > > critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >
>> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > > critical-realism-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >
>> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > > critical-realism-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >
>> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > > than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Today's Topics:
>> > >
>> > > 1. Re: pragmatism/realism (Mervyn Hartwig)
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >
>> > > Message: 1
>> > > Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:00:04 -0000
>> > > From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] pragmatism/realism
>> > > To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> > > <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > Message-ID: <00ed01c765bb$211d8160$0200000a@DJC3CP0J>
>> > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> > > reply-type=response
>> > >
>> > > Hi Phil
>> > >
>> > > Your second reference to CR's 'cult-like image'. It could be that
>> the > > beholders in whose eye the image is need help shedding it
>> rather than > > CR.
>> > >
>> > > Mervyn
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From:
>> > > <pohanlon03@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To:
>> > > <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, March 13,
>> > > 2007 6:31 PM Subject: [Critical-Realism] pragmatism/realism
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Thanks for comments guys! - George - thanks for the links. Gideon
>> - > > thanks for your comments and references and yes, I will be the
>> guy > > Cillian mentioned. I don't know a great deal about pragmatism
>> except > > through Habermas. But I guess the issue for me is to figure
>> how CR > > and a pragmatism actually differ in respect of applied
>> politics. In > > fact I think the issue and challenge for CR generally
>> is to be able > > to show, in plain terms, how it is able to make a
>> decisive difference > > at the level of practice and applied social
>> science. That then might > > help to shed its cult-like image.
>> > >
>> > > The idea of pragmatism I have in mind is one that would not want
>> to > > deny "the real" but simply to deny privileged access to it - and
>> I > > think then the pragmatist suspicion might be that that is what CR
>> is > > claiming for itself and that it wants to underwrite a role for >
>> > elites. If not, and if CR is committed fully to democratic methods >
>> > involving the widest possible number of participants, I have trouble
>> > > to see how its deliberative outcome will be any different from a >
>> > Peircean consensus. But I don't yey know enough. Anyway, just to say
>> > > that I pesonally think this is an important area that CR should
>> think > > about a bit more.
>> > >
>> > > cheers
>> > > Phil.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Mar 13 2007, critical-realism-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>> > > > critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > >
>> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > > > critical-realism-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > >
>> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > > > critical-realism-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > >
>> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>> > > > specific than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Today's Topics:
>> > > >
>> > > > 1. RE: realism/pragmatism? (Gideon Calder)
>> > > > 2. Re: Pronouncing Bashkar (David Harvey)
>> > > > 3. Re: Pronouncing Bashkar (David Harvey)
>> > > > 4. RE: realism/pragmatism? (Gideon Calder)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > Message: 1
>> > > > Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:02:45 -0000
>> > > > From: "Gideon Calder" <Gideon.Calder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > Subject: RE: [Critical-Realism] realism/pragmatism?
>> > > > To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> > > > <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > Message-ID: <D053285E784A154B8C45C9CBFDC1E88503502263@x001>
>> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi Ruth
>> > > >
>> > > > It's called Rorty's Politics of Redescription. There's a
>> blurb > > > about it on the University of Wales Press website... > > >
>> http://www.uwp.co.uk/holding_frame.html
>> > > >
>> > > > ... but there's no direct url because of the way the site
>> works. > > > It's in the Political Philosophy Now series, if you've
>> time to dig > > > about a bit.
>> > > >
>> > > > Roughly, my pitch on the metaphysical side is that Frankfurt >
>> > > > > >
>> School criticisms of first-generation pragmatism apply equivalently >
>> > > to Rorty's neo-version. And that Rorty, despite himself and in
>> bits > > > and pieces, has a smuggled-in metaphysics of his own.
>> > > >
>> > > > Cheers,
>> > > >
>> > > > Gideon
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message----- From: > > >
>> critical-realism-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > >
>> [mailto:critical-realism-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of > >
>> > Ruth Groff Sent: 13 March 2007 00:43 To: Continuation of the Spoon >
>> > > Bhaskar List Subject: RE: [Critical-Realism] realism/pragmatism?
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi Gideon,
>> > > >
>> > > > What's your book called? I agree with you that the metaphysics is
>> > > > different, pragmatism versus cr.
>> > > >
>> > > > Warmly,
>> > > > Ruth
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > Message: 2
>> > > > Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:54:01 -0700
>> > > > From: David Harvey <dharvey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing Bashkar
>> > > > To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
>> > > > <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > Message-ID: <45F6BB09.4040907@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> > > >
>> > > > Hockeys wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Dhanyawaad Bharat Bhai!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I'd like to hear more (probably off-line, unless other
>> listers > > > > are also interested) about how you might be applying
>> critical > > > > realism in your studies (geography?). I'm particularly
>> interested > > > > to begin to explore further, links between critical
>> realist > > > > (including meta-Realist) thought and Indian political
>> history and > > > > philosophy.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Neil
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bharat Khushal
>> Punjabi" > > > > <bpunjabi@xxxxxx>
>> > > > > To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List" > > > >
>> <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 2:02 AM
>> > > > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing Bashkar
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> Neil is right! The emphasis on the Bh is important as in my
>> own > > > >> name "Bharat". Susbscriibers can search on the net on >
>> > > >> pronoucning 'Bharat"- there should be a lot on the internet > >
>> > >> since Bharat also means " India" and is a common name. Once you >
>> > > >> are able to have the right emphasis on Bh, you will get Bhaskar
>> > > > >> right.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Here in Canada, most of my Canadian friends always end
>> up > > > >> pronouncing my name as "Brat" and not Bharat because they
>> have a > > > >> hard time laying the right emphasis on "Bh".
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Bharat Punjabi
>> > > > >> Phd candidate
>> > > > >> Department of Geography
>> > > > >> Social Science Centre
>> > > > >> The University of Western Ontario
>> > > > >> 1151 Richmond Street
>> > > > >> London, Ontario, Canada, N6A 5C2
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> <limhockey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >> Date: Monday, March 12, 2007 5:43 am
>> > > > >> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing Bashkar
>> > > > >> To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List > > > >>
>> <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>> One response I give when I hear Aussie politicians repeatedly
>> > > > >>> mispronouncing
>> > > > >>> Indigenous, immigrants' or refugees' names, is "Would our pm
>> > > > >>> appreciate
>> > > > >>> repeatedly being called 'Joan Ho Ward'?
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> > From my understanding, the 'h' is not silent, but indicates
>> > > > >>> > an
>> > > > >>> aspirated 'Bh'. The first 'a' is pronounced as in "but" (i.e.
>> > > > >>> it's a short 'a' rather than a long 'aa'). And I imagine that
>> > > > >>> some Asian pronunciations of the second syllable might roll
>> > > > >>> the 'r'.
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> Any Indian listers like to clarify further?
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> Neil
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mervyn Hartwig" > > >
>> > > > >>> >>>
>> <mh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>> To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> > > > >>> <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:24 AM
>> > > > >>> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing Bashkar
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> > Here's an answer (not obvious to anyone who's first
>> > > > >>> > language
>> > > > >>> isn't
>> > > > >>> > English):
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> > You've got the 'h' in the wrong place.
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> > Bhas.kar=
>> > > > >>> > [bas.kar]
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> > The emphasis is on the first sylable. The 'h' is silent.
>> > > > >>> > The
>> > > > >>> first 'a' is
>> > > > >>> > as in 'apple', the second as in 'car'. The 's' is as in
>> > > > >>> > 'gas' or
>> > > > >>> the 'ss' in
>> > > > >>> > 'mass'.
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> > Mervyn
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave Taylor"
>> > > > >>> <dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>> > To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
>> > > > >>> > <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>> > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 7:27 AM
>> > > > >>> > Subject: RE: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing Bashkar
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> >> I understood Hutterer Robert to be asking a question
>> > > > >>> >> (which,
>> > > > >>> now he has
>> > > > >>> >> raised it, I realise I cannot answer). Are you being
>> > > > >>> sarcastic, David,
>> > > > >>> >> or
>> > > > >>> >> seeing something I'm not seeing, or not seeing Hutterer's
>> > > > >>> difficulty with
>> > > > >>> >> English?
>> > > > >>> >>
>> > > > >>> >> Dave
>> > > > >>> >>
>> > > > >>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> > > > >>> >> From: critical-realism-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>> >> [mailto:critical-realism-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>> > > > >>> Behalf Of David
>> > > > >>> >> Harvey
>> > > > >>> >> Sent: 10 March 2007 20:43
>> > > > >>> >> To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
>> > > > >>> >> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing Bashkar
>> > > > >>> >>
>> > > > >>> >> Hutterer Robert wrote:
>> > > > >>> >>
>> > > > >>> >>>Listmember should be able to help me to pronounce the name
>> > > > >>> Bashkar in a
>> > > > >>> >>>corrct way:
>> > > > >>> >>>Bash.kar =
>> > > > >>> >>>[baash.kar]
>> > > > >>> >>>[baas.kar]
>> > > > >>> >>>[besh.kar]
>> > > > >>> >>>[bes.kar]
>> > > > >>> >>>...
>> > > > >>> >>>
>> > > > >>> >>>
>> > > > >>> >>>Thanks
>> > > > >>> >>>
>> > > > >>> >>>
>> > > > >>> >>>
>> > > > >>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> > > > >>> >>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >>> >>> Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>> >>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >>> >>>
>> > > > >>> >>>
>> > > > >>> >> Thanks for clearing that up.
>> > > > >>> >> Harvey
>> > > > >>> >>
>> > > > >>> >>
>> > > > >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> > > > >>> >> Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >>> >> Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>> >> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >>> >>
>> > > > >>> >>
>> > > > >>> >>
>> > > > >>> >>
>> > > > >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> > > > >>> >> Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >>> >> Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>> >> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> >
>> > > > >>> > _______________________________________________
>> > > > >>> > Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >>> > Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > > > >>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >>> Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > > >> Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >> Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > > Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > >
>> > > > Look at the work of Julian Steward and the Culutral Ecologists
>> of > > > a few decades ago. You may find somethingof interests.
>> Wittfogel's > > > "Oriental Despotism" (ignore his deplorable politics
>> in later > > > life). And, of course the "fampous David Harvey," as my
>> students > > > referred to him is a veritable goldmind of ideas. Harvey
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > Message: 3
>> > > > Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:36:41 -0700
>> > > > From: David Harvey <dharvey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing Bashkar
>> > > > To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
>> > > > <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > Message-ID: <45F6E129.2040607@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>> > > >
>> > > > Mark Methven wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > I'm sure that the 'boxcar' pronunciation was the result of a
>> wry, > > > > even twisted sense of humor. Whatever 'midwestern' means,
>> I can > > > > certainly lay some claim to it, though I prefer
>> Northerner > > > > (Minnesotan) to make the politics of the term
>> explicit. Also, > > > > conversant in a number of languages from
>> Hebrew, Arabic, and > > > > southern Mandarin, not to mention the
>> subtle accent differences > > > > of the northeast - particularly
>> Boston, and the south from Texas > > > > to South Carolina, and having
>> lived in all those regions, > > > > 'boxcar' would at best be the
>> stumbling initial attempts at > > > > pronouncing an unfamililar
>> looking word/name.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Mervyn is entirely correct in stating that words and
>> > > > >names phonetically, and often semantically change as
>> > > > >the result of a new language environment. None of
>> > > > >this is new, historical linguistics has been around
>> > > > >for centuries. Diachronically speaking, linguistic
>> > > > >imperialism has always been part of the political
>> > > > >landscape also. One need only go back to the Old and
>> > > > >New Testaments, Aramaic orthography completely
>> > > > >displaced Hebrew. We can surmise that the spoken
>> > > > >languages were equally in transition. The point being
>> > > > >is that the current wave of linguistic imperialism in
>> > > > >the guise of American relativism is nothing new in
>> > > > >itself and can give rise to new studies in this
>> > > > >interesting, though somewhat disconcerting process. An
>> equally > > > >interesting aspect is how one imperial
>> > > > >process overcomes and supplants another, RP English.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Cheers! Now back to databases and operating systems.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Mark
>> > > > >--- Mervyn Hartwig <mh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> But the Indian pronunciation isn't more 'correct' than
>> the > > > >> English, and vice versa. They're equally appropriate in
>> the > > > >> right context. I gave the English version because that's
>> the > > > >> context in which Bhaskar (whose mother was English and
>> who's a > > > >> product of the English public school and Oxbridge
>> systems) > > > >> overwhelmingly operates. Likewise, when someone asks
>> me (in > > > >> English) how to pronounce my own name, 'Hartwig', I
>> give the > > > >> English version, not the German original.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> My general point is that there's an ethical principle at
>> stake > > > >> (one that the 'pronunciational relativists' ignore --
>> cf. > > > >> postmodernism's jettisoning of the universal): we should
>> respect > > > >> the wishes and sensitivities of the addressee in the
>> matter, CP. > > > >> I'm sure Bhaskar doesn't mind being addressed
>> either in the > > > >> English or the Indian way, but he'd undoubtedly
>> object to Boxcar > > > >> in most contexts. We have to put up with this
>> latter kind of > > > >> thing, emanating mainly from American
>> 'relativists', on our TV > > > >> screens and radio every day.
>> Relativism here -- pronouncing > > > >> names in whatever way you
>> please -- is a surrogate for cultural > > > >> imperialism and actually
>> wears a uniform. But we can be > > > >> judgementally rational in this
>> sphere too, and judgemental > > > >> relativism is false.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>Mervyn
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>----- Original Message ----- > > > >>From: "Hockeys"
>> <limhockey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> > > > >><critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:02 PM
>> > > > >>Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing Bashkar
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>Point taken Mervyn, one I wasn't aware of!
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>But was Hutterer Robert asking for the anglicised
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>pronunciation or the
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>'correct' one?
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>Neil
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>----- Original Message ----- > > > >>>From: "Mervyn Hartwig"
>> <mh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>>To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> > > > >>><critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>>Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 8:52 PM
>> > > > >>>Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>Bashkar
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>>Ah, but Bhusskarr himself anglicises it to
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>Bass-kar.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>Mervyn
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>>----- Original Message ----- > > > >>>>From: "Hockeys"
>> <limhockey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>>>To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> > > > >>>><critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>>>Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 9:41 AM
>> > > > >>>>Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>Bashkar
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>>>One response I give when I hear Aussie
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>politicians repeatedly
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>mispronouncing Indigenous, immigrants' or
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>refugees' names, is "Would our
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>pm appreciate repeatedly being called 'Joan Ho
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>Ward'?
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>From my understanding, the 'h' is not silent,
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>but indicates an aspirated
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>'Bh'. The first 'a' is pronounced as in "but"
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>(i.e. it's a short 'a'
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>rather than a long 'aa'). And I imagine that
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>some Asian pronunciations
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>of the second syllable might roll the 'r'.
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>Any Indian listers like to clarify further?
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>Neil
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>----- Original Message ----- > > > >>>>>From: "Mervyn
>> Hartwig" <mh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>>>>To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> > > > >>>>><critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>>>>Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:24 AM
>> > > > >>>>>Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>Bashkar
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>Here's an answer (not obvious to anyone who's
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>first language isn't
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>English):
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>You've got the 'h' in the wrong place.
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>Bhas.kar=
>> > > > >>>>>>[bas.kar]
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>The emphasis is on the first sylable. The 'h'
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>is silent. The first 'a'
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>is as
>> > > > >>>>>>in 'apple', the second as in 'car'. The 's' is
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>as in 'gas' or the 'ss'
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>in
>> > > > >>>>>>'mass'.
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>Mervyn
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >>>>>>From: "Dave
>> > > > >>>>>> Taylor"
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >><dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
>> > > > >>>>>><critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 7:27 AM
>> > > > >>>>>>Subject: RE: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>Bashkar
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>I understood Hutterer Robert to be asking a
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>question (which, now he has
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>>raised it, I realise I cannot answer). Are
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>you being sarcastic,
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>>David, or
>> > > > >>>>>>>seeing something I'm not seeing, or not seeing
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>Hutterer's difficulty
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>>with
>> > > > >>>>>>>English?
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>Dave
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>> > > > >>>>>>>From:
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>critical-realism-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >[mailto:critical-realism-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> > > > >
>> > > > >>On Behalf Of
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>>David
>> > > > >>>>>>>Harvey
>> > > > >>>>>>>Sent: 10 March 2007 20:43
>> > > > >>>>>>>To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
>> > > > >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Pronouncing
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>Bashkar
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>>Hutterer Robert wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>Listmember should be able to help me to
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>pronounce the name Bashkar in
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>a
>> > > > >>>>>>>>corrct way:
>> > > > >>>>>>>>Bash.kar =
>> > > > >>>>>>>>[baash.kar]
>> > > > >>>>>>>>[baas.kar]
>> > > > >>>>>>>>[besh.kar]
>> > > > >>>>>>>>[bes.kar]
>> > > > >>>>>>>>...
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>Thanks
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >>>>>>>>Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>Thanks for clearing that up.
>> > > > >>>>>>>Harvey
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>_______________________________________________
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>>>>>>Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >>>>>>>Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >
>> > > > >=== message truncated ===
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >_______________________________________________
>> > > > >Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Dear Mark,
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank you for clearing up that point of humor. By the way,
>> asfor > > > my midwestern roots, they are in Southern Illinois, a town
>> called > > > Wood River. Wood River is famous for two things. First, it
>> was the > > > winter quarters of Lewis and Clark the year before they
>> launched > > > their "Corp of Discovery" up the Missouri. Second, it
>> was once > > > virtually a company, town. the home of what would later
>> become > > > Standard Oil of Indiana. This last point is significant,
>> because > > > after the Ludlow Massacre and the Walsh Commission
>> inquiry, the > > > Rockefellers vowed never again to kill their workers
>> or families. > > > Consequently, they hired McKenzie King, a
>> sociologist, to > > > scientifically design a program of worker welfare
>> that would pacify > > > Standard Oil's employees. King then used
>> Rockefeller (Spellman > > > Foundation (?)) money and set up the first
>> institute of industrial > > > relations and hired social scientists to
>> develop such programs. > > > Having done so, according to the strictest
>> scientific canons of the > > > day, they looked about for a palace to
>> test the programs. They > > > picked Wood River, and for the next fifty
>> years paternalistically > > > supplied the worriers of Standard Oil of
>> Indiana, with a "country > > > club (remember this was the "twenties"
>> when such water holes were > > > all the rage), a youth center, an
>> enormous swimming pool, and a > > > high school whose facilities and
>> instructional program allowed > > > working class sons and daughters to
>> obtain an education, especially > > > in science and math, that was
>> second to none.
>> > > >
>> > > > I bring this story up in the spirit of reciprocity, providing
>> an > > > example of social amnesia to complement your exegesis on
>> linguistic > > > oppression. I discovered this story at the age of
>> fifty while > > > reading the middle volume of Irving Bernstain's fine
>> trilogy on > > > American labor. That was the first I had heard of this
>> incident
>> > > > Upon checking with those I had grown up with, they were
>> similarly > > > astonished to find out we were the beneficiaries of
>> John D. and > > > "Junior's" largess. Now, a comment that would warm
>> the cockles of > > > T. W. Adorno's dialectical contrarian heart. Free
>> of the knowledge > > > of that historical morsel, many of Wood River's
>> best and brightest > > > turned out to be well-educated disappointments
>> to the Mssrs. > > > Rockefellers. The vehicle of such a disappointment
>> was a productive > > > intelelctual mediation: for example, three gay
>> teachers were part > > > of Tennessee Williams circle (Wood River is a
>> short drive from St. > > > Louis) and spent their weekends in St.
>> Louis: They instructed us in > > > the critical role of the arts
>> without telling us they were doing > > > so. And, in my case there was
>> a fourth, a music teacher with a > > > shriveled left arm--Miss Jones--
>> who in 1952 had the temerity to > > > play for us Paul Robeson's
>> ""Ballad for Americans" and > > > unapologetically praised him, even as
>> J. Edger was destroying the > > > man and his work. These people
>> managed to take the Ludlow blood > > > money being lavished on Wood
>> River, and make of many of us "left > > > working-class humanists"
>> before we knew what laft, working-class > > > humanism was. When we hit
>> the universities in the 1950s, we were > > > well prepared to succeed
>> in math and the sciences, and were later > >
>> > sucker recruits for YPSL, CORE, and SDS. Needless to say there were
>> > > > many closet leftists professors (Red Grange had by then > > >
>> witch-hunted his way through the U0f I economics department ) and > >
>> > many "Reds" had lowered their profiles, but not abandoned us or the
>> > > > cause.. Finally, a friend after reading the manuscript of my > >
>> > ethnography of a poor hillhbilly slum---using the mixed theoretical
>> > > > premises of Chicago Sociology, the Franfurt School and Georg > >
>> > Luckas' HCC-- asked me if I was using Bhaskar's work. My answer > >
>> > was, "No!"---actually "Who?" "No!" Needless to say, I soon read his
>> > > > available works and found them to be, in their own way, both > >
>> > self-revaltory biographically and theoretically a masterful > > >
>> synthesis of my eclectic style. Ironically, while this was the path >
>> > > I took to Critical Realism, it had been under my nose for several
>> > > > years at the University of Nevada. The joint doctoral program in
>> > > > social psychology (sociology and psychology) had established an
>> > > > exchange program with Oxford. Rom Hare and Russell Keats (?) had
>> > > > visited the campus and Carl Backman, Gerald Ginsberg, and Paul >
>> > > Secord had visited Oxford. Anyway, thanks for the comment and > >
>> > instruction. Given the asymmetrical length of the two posts, you > >
>> > owe us some commentary on the nature of your work a it's relation >
>> > > to CR. Harvey
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > Message: 4
>> > > > Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:53:18 -0000
>> > > > From: "Gideon Calder" <Gideon.Calder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > Subject: RE: [Critical-Realism] realism/pragmatism?
>> > > > To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> > > > <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > Message-ID: <D053285E784A154B8C45C9CBFDC1E885035024B4@x001>
>> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> > > >
>> > > > Just quickly to say... Tobin, agree entirely re: Peirce, who
>> for > > > those reasons is pretty much exempt from the label
>> pragmatist, in > > > my book. And Pär, I think you're dead right too:
>> one big problem > > > with much pragmatism is its lack of an adequate
>> conception of > > > practice itself. Then again, of course, for full-on
>> pragmatists > > > questions about conditions of possibility, whether of
>> practice in > > > general, or of this particular form of practice, are
>> by definition > > > not bothersome ones. If you've ever come across
>> Rorty in person, > > > it's in response to such questions that he gives
>> one of his famous > > > shrugs. Very much looking forward to reading
>> your Pragmatism entry.
>> > > >
>> > > > Excuse rush,
>> > > >
>> > > > Gideon
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message----- From: > > >
>> critical-realism-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > >
>> [mailto:critical-realism-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of > >
>> > Par Engholm Sent: 13 March 2007 07:42 To: Continuation of the Spoon
>> > > > Bhaskar List; Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List Subject:
>> Re: > > > [Critical-Realism] realism/pragmatism?
>> > > >
>> > > > Tobin, Gideon, Ruth, Phil, George and other listers,
>> > > >
>> > > > I definately agree with Tobin that Pragmatism doen't have to
>> be > > > nominalist, as the work of Peirce show, but then again, Peirce
>> was > > > very much forgotten by James and even Dewey and the ensuing
>> breed > > > of pragmatists that was heavily influenced by James'
>> radical > > > empiricism and very much moved away from any insights
>> that Peirce > > > and even the small contingent of American Critical
>> Realists (Drake, > > > Santayana, Lovejoy, Sellars (the elder) were
>> putting forward in the > > > 20:s. That's a real shame, but a fact
>> which could partly be > > > explicated by the strain from logical
>> positivism at the time. > > > Unfortunately, the present revival of
>> Pragmatism very much takes > > > the nominalist, anti-realist,
>> anti-representationalist, > > > constructionist tack on Pragmatism,
>> giving it a very shaky > > > foundation in it being at times
>> anti-scientific, certainly not > > > serious in its depiction of the
>> pragmatist principle - that is not > > > taking the practical
>> consequences of theories, practices etc in > > > account seriously. I
>> have tried to capture the main tenets of the > > > Pragmatist regress
>> in my entry on Pragmatism in A Dictionary of > > > Critical Realism and
>> I hope to be able to formulate my case against > > > the present
>> 'revival' of some anti-scientific pragmatist ideas (in > > > partiulcar
>> in Rorty...) in a paper for this summer's conference in > >
>> > Philadelphia. The title of this paper is 'Pragmatising Pragmatism'.
>> > > > I think one of the main problems with pragmatism is that it is
>> not > > > sufficiently pragmatic, i.e. it does not delineate the
>> possible > > > pragmatic (and theoretical) consequences of theories,
>> practices etc > > > and one of the most obvious (for crit realists that
>> is) is the > > > endemic epistemic fallacy underwriting this whole
>> tradition, as > > > well as its poor understanding of the ontic (as
>> well as epistemic) > > > stratification of the world.
>> > > >
>> > > > Best,
>> > > > Pär
>> > > >
>> > > > At 02:10 2007-03-13, Tobin Nellhaus wrote:
>> > > > >Gideon--
>> > > > >
>> > > > > You wrote, "pragmatism is nominalist, and really has to be."
>> Not > > > > so! At least not to Peirce, who defined the real (in his
>> uniquely > > > > awkward style) as "that whose characters are
>> independent of what > > > > anybody may think them to be." A realist
>> view, any way you cut > > > > it.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Then again, Peirce renamed his philosophy "pragmaticism," which
>> > > > > was intentionally ugly: he wanted to rescue it from William
>> > > > > James.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Cheers,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Tobin
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Gideon
>> Calder" > > > ><Gideon.Calder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> > > > ><critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 8:21 PM
>> > > > >Subject: RE: [Critical-Realism] realism/pragmatism?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Hello Phil, George
>> > > > >
>> > > > > He's hardly 'realistically oriented', but if Rorty is > > > >
>> pragmatism's current head honcho then (in case you haven't come > > >
>> > across it) Bhaskar's critique of him, Philosophy and the Idea of > >
>> > > Freedom, drives a big old wedge between the two.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On a more immodest note, I've got a book on Rorty coming out
>> in > > > > a month or two, based on my PhD of a few years ago. It's
>> only > > > > inexplicitly critical realist, because it was only as I
>> was > > > > finishing my thesis that pennies began dropping about the
>> > > > > affinity between what I was writing and things beings said > >
>> > > elsewhere, and better, by CR people. Still, you might find it > >
>> > > handy. It's got quite a nice cover, but in itself that's not > > >
>> > really worth 16 quid; I can send a copy of the page proofs if you >
>> > > > like.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Quick answer to your question: pragmatism is nominalist,
>> and > > > > really has to be. Personally I think Rorty's reading of
>> James and > > > > Dewey (not Peirce) as sowing most of the main seeds
>> for his own, > > > > post-linguistic turn, version of pragmatism is
>> fair enough. In > > > > the book's more carried-away moments I try to
>> show that > > > > pragmatism has more in common with logical positivism
>> and > > > > post-structuralism (both at once - it takes some arguing)
>> than > > > > with anything viably realist. In any case, I'd put the
>> question > > > > the other way around: what is it about pragmatism, old
>> or new, > > > > which offers itself up to a critically realist twist?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >cheers,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Gideon
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >________________________________
>> > > > >
>> > > > > From: critical-realism-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf
>> of > > > > George demetrion Sent: Mon 12-Mar-07 11:14 PM To: > > > >
>> critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: > > > >
>> [Critical-Realism] realism/pragmatism?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Phil,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I'm glad you asked that question. It's a concern of mine,
>> too. > > > > I've done a faiir amount on Dewey in my capacity as a lay
>> > > > > philosopher, and when I put his three critical texts together,
>> > > > > Experience and Nature, In Quest of Certainty, and Logic: The >
>> > > > Theory of Inquiry, I, too would like to know in very plain > > >
>> > English what CR offers that goes beyond pragmatism.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > There is, by the way, some good discussion between pragmatism
>> and > > > > realism currently underway. John Shook has done some good
>> work in > > > > this area.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >This collection of essays by Shook may be of interest
>> > > > >http://www.prometheusbooks.com/site/catalog/book_1234.html
>> > > > >
>> > > > > As well as his monograph Dewey's Empirical Theory and
>> Reality > > > >
>> http://www.vanderbiltuniversitypress.com/bookdetail.asp?book_id=3911
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Also, there may be an interest in this essay on Sellars and
>> > > > > Dewey: http://users.california.com/~mcmf/sellarsdewey.html
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Perhaps the pros will weigh in here.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >George Demetrion
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >From: pohanlon03@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >Reply-To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar
>> > > > >List<critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >To: critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >Subject: [Critical-Realism] realism/pragmatism?
>> > > > >Date: 12 Mar 2007 20:29:00 +0000
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Dear subscribers
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I'm a relative newcomer to CR and something I often come
>> up > > > > against whilst arguing for CR principles is 1) that CR is
>> not > > > > taken seriously, 2) that it is a kind of cult, and 3) that
>> if I > > > > want to argue for CR then I have to be able to demonstrate
>> what > > > > CR can offer in concrete terms that a realistically
>> oriented > > > > pragmatism cannot, apart from the multitude of
>> neologisms. I was > > > > wondering if anybody could help me out with
>> that, by perhaps > > > > signalling in plain terms how an applied CR
>> might decisively > > > > differ from a good-working pragmatism? Or if
>> anybody knows if > > > > anyone has written on this topic?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Thanks
>> > > > >Phil.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Mar 12 2007, critical-realism-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >>Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>> > > > >> critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> or, > > > >> via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > > > >> critical-realism-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > > > >> critical-realism-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
>> more > > > >> specific than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism
>> digest..."
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>Today's Topics:
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> 1. Pronunciational Relativism (Hutterer Robert)
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>Message: 1
>> > > > >>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:51:52 +0100
>> > > > >>From: "Hutterer Robert" <robert.hutterer@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>Subject: [Critical-Realism] Pronunciational Relativism
>> > > > >>To: <critical-realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>Message-ID: <013f01c764d7$7f8d6e70$0401a8c0@Optiplex>
>> > > > >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Thank you all for the clarifications and rich discussions.
>> I > > > >> guess this was a good stupid question. I learned more than
>> > > > >> expected. Intending to get the one and only correct answer I
>> > > > >> have indeed the freedom of alternative pronounciations (not >
>> > > >> ironic!) - maybe a demonstration of lived CR: "literal realism"
>> > > > >> vs. "pronunciational relativism" referring to the
>> intransitive > > > >> "Bhaskar". ;-)
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >
>> > > > >_______________________________________________
>> > > > >Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >_______________________________________________
>> > > > >Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >_______________________________________________
>> > > > >Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >_______________________________________________
>> > > > >Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > >Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > >http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > >
>> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > Par Engholm; <mailto:Par.Engholm@xxxxxxxxx>Par.Engholm@xxxxxxxxx
>> > > > Uppsala University, Dept. of Sociology
>> > > > Box 624; SE-751 26 Uppsala; SWEDEN
>> > > > Phone: +46 18 471 1181
>> > > > http://www.soc.uu.se/staff/par_e.html
>> > > > Home: Botvidsgatan 14 B; SE-753 27 Uppsala
>> > > > Phone: +46 18 696348; Mobile: +46 709 783546
>> > > > <http://prometheuslight.blogspot.com/>Prometheus > > >
>> _______________________________________________
>> > > > Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > > Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29, Issue 16
>> > > > ************************************************
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________ Critical-Realism
>> > > > >
>> mailing list Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >
>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > > Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29, Issue 18
>> > > ************************************************
>> > >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> >
>> >
>> > End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29, Issue 21
>> > ************************************************
>> >
>>_______________________________________________
>>Critical-Realism mailing list
>>Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>
>>------------------------------
>>_______________________________________________
>>Critical-Realism mailing list
>>Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>
>>End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29, Issue 23
>>************************************************
>
>_______________________________________________
>Critical-Realism mailing list
>Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 29, Issue 27
************************************************