Re: BHA: Reality, existence, and the Santa Clause

[Colin Wight <Colin.Wight@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Hans,

I did indeed say what you quote and i have not and do not retract it. You
say you disagree with it. But what is it you disagree with?:

>> Beliefs in Santa are real - Are you denying this?


>>but Santa (as far as we can tell does not) - is it this you disgaree with?.

Are you arguing that there really does exist a white bearded old man
etc....? OR, are you claiming that there are discourse and beliefs in a
white bearde old man etc... these are two distinct things I say the latter
is real, but not the former. What is it you completly reject?

But you highlight the problem exactly your self when you note that children
in our society are fed Santa stories, surely if santa exists these wouldn't
be mere stories? And of course you make my argument about Santa (the white
bearded old man, not the discourses) not being real by highlighting the
fact that it from society upon which the causal power of santa is derived,
not his power to fly over large tracts of the earth in a short space of
time etc...

Howie,

Since you argue:

>Of course, there is no bearded Santa living at
>the North Pole making toys for children around the world. But you cant
>escape the causal effects of Santa as social phenomenon simply by
>renouncing belief in the man and his elves.

Then we agree, substantially at least. I'm not sure why I feel the need to
reiterate this, but.....My position is that there is no white bearded old
man etc...(yawn), but that there are discourse in santa which have a social
effect. Now, on the point about the status of these discourses. i admit
that perhps some of my formulations require fleshing out and substantial
modification. However, my aim was not to work throough the complex
ontological distinction between santa and social structures. My aim was to
argue that santa really does not exist and that those who argued the
contrary were confusing the referent in the sentence santa. Reference here
seems important to me since when we refer to society we refer to something
(contra laclau, Mouffe and thatcher) which exists - however defined. When
we refer to santa however, we refer to something/someone that does not
exist. HOWEVER, let me REPEAT that, HOWEVER, if by Santa those on the
'Santa exists' side of this debate mean the practices associated with this
non-existent old man, then please let's have some conceptual clarity and
people make clear their referents. Nobody, that I can see how doubted the
causal efficacy and reality of the discourse and practices of santa - I
have a vague memory of this point being my intial one and using my having
to drink sherry etc as proof of it. I have lost the plot?

Thanks,


>



=============================================


Dr. Colin Wight
Department of International Politics
University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Wales
SY23 3DA
Tel: (01970) 621769


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