Re: AUT: Re: Immeasurable value

["Nate Holdren" <nateholdren@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Harry-
What's at stake politically in the measurability vs immeasurability of
value? Clearly for Negri his views are not just warmed over Critical Theory,
because unlike the Frankfurters Negri thinks capital is fragile and that
resistance happens all over the place. I have a hard time following these
arguments, both onlist and in writing, both for value's measurability and
its immeasurability. Can you give me an example of measured/measurable
value? How do fights about overtime pay cease to make sense if one argues
that value is immeasurable? Any reading you'd recommend to help me get clear
on all this stuff? Please pardon my confusion, and I hope I don't sound
flippant or dismissive.

thanks much,
Nate


We will teach our twisted speech to the young believers.
-The Clash, "Working For The Clampdown"





>From: "Harry M. Cleaver" <hmcleave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: <aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Immeasurable value
>Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:46:24 -0600 (CST)
>
>On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Lowe Laclau wrote:
>
> >
> > hello Harry,
> >
> > I'm pretty lost with all of these posts so, I'm just kinda jumping in
>here.
> >
> > My perspective on Negri's immeasurability thesis is that he's not so
> >much denying the quantifiability of our new postmodern labor as he is
> >simply attempting to describe this process by which the use value of
> >labor power goes from being a unit of measure is constructed outside of
> >capitalist production and reproduction of society (exchange value) to one
> >where a separation of exchange value completely collapses. The
> >quantifiability is still there. Its is just not done external to the
> >society of capital(s). And those things that are constructed outside a
> >regime of capitalist production is immediately recouperated by it.
>
>Lowe,
>Well, I think N&H are quite explicit in asserting the non-quantifiability
>of value. In fact Negri has been talking about the crisis of the Law of
>Value for over thirty years. That said, value is not the same as
>"postmodern labor" even though for them the latter generates the former
>in an unquantifiable way. In fact, having jettisoned quantity from the
>analysis of value its not clear what's left. Certainly concepts such as
>exploitation, rates of surplus value and profit, the organic composition
>of capital etc. go by the wayside because they all depend on quantitative
>comparisons.
>
>Negri and Hardt have a "qualitative" discussion of "postmodern labor" -
>immaterial labor and all that - which they see as creative, constitutive
>etc. but totally trapped, constrained and harnessed by capital. But that
>doesn't seem all that different than the orthodox vision of total
>capital hegemony over living labor. The use value of labor power was never
>a "unit of measure" as you say - as far as I can see - and with labor
>power itself constructed within the capital relationship I don't see
>where you think there was any externality that has disappeared.
>
> >
> > I agree with Tom that the chapter is very flowerfully written (perhaps
> >thats not a real word...). Where I think they are attempting to enunciate
> >the existence of something positive for the working class or the
> >multitude is in the fact that they would postulate that the means of
> >production are situated in our own brains. Thats the source of this
> >vitality of the productive context.
>
>Yes, but mental labor is not new. The labor process was defined by Marx,
>after all, with reference to it. Remember the discussion in chapter 7 of
>CAPITAL about the worst of architects being better than the best of
>bees....
>
> >No longer does capital need be something external to our productive
> >capacities.
>
>What does this mean? Factories, sound stages, audio equipment, computers
>etc are unnecessary? Means of production no longer serve to organize and
>control labor? Sounds like some disembodied spirits encountered by Captain
>Kirk in deep space, not the world I live in.
>
> >This is really what makes everything immeasurable from the
> >perspective of the "below".
>
>I don't understand what this means either. If everything is immeasurable
>from below, then why are workers fighting Bush's attempt to wipe out
>overtime pay? and still fighting for higher wages, and cheaper
>pharmaceuticals, etc etc.? I look around and see no disappearance of
>either quantity or measure. I see rather an intense capitalist
>preoccupation with both and therefore intense workers struggles around
>such issues.
>
>
> >The expression of labor as desire...?
> >Well... I'm sure what he's getting at
>(sounds like Hardt).
>
>?????
>
>H.
>
> >
> > Ciao
> >
> > Lowe
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Harry M. Cleaver" <hmcleave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >
> >
> >
> > >Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > >To: <aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >
> > >Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Immeasurable value
> >
> > >Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:59:51 -0600 (CST)
> >
> > >
> >
> > >On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Tom Messmer wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > > Harry,
> >
> > > > Thanks, your comment and the second half of that article actually
> >
> > > > clears it up a bit. I was taken aback by the fact that he seems to
>be
> >
> > > > introducing some sort of diffuse, fuzzy ubervalue
> >
> > >
> >
> > >It's still LABOR value. For all his revisionism, Toni is still
> >
> > >very wedded to the centrality of labor in human activity. Of course, by
> >
> > >now everything is labor so his break with Marx is not from labor as the
> >
> > >source of value, but from the measurability of labor - and in the
>process
> >
> > >he loses all ability to say anything quantitatively useful.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > > created by their
> >
> > > > every activity which seems to travel along with the Multitude
>wherever
> >
> > > > it roams, its roaming now "heroic" rather  than probably just really
> >
> > > > crappy for them.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >If the Multitude is just the working class writ large, creating yet
> >
> > >harnessed in all its acts, then its roaming must be both crappy and
> >
> > >heroic, exploited (tho this concept becomes indeterminate if you can't
> >
> > >measure value) yet always struggling to free itself. What's missing in
> >
> > >all this is any analysis of actual escape, of any exodus that has
>actually
> >
> > >crossed the Red Sea and is doing something different. Which is why, for
> >
> > >me, dispite its perceptiveness about capitalist tendencies toward
>moving
> >
> > >beyond national forms of self-organization, Empire smacks of orthodoxy
> >
> > >and critical theory in new clothes.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >H.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > All in all though, I did enjoy Empire, its a lively and thought
> >
> > > > provoking read.
> >
> > > > Tom
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > On Mar 28, 2004, at 3:35 AM, Harry M. Cleaver wrote:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > > On Sat, 27 Mar 2004, Eubulides wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > > >> From: "Tom Messmer" <messmer@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> Does anyone have any insight into the section in Empire 4.1 on
> >
> > > > >> "Immeasurability"?  They write:
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >>  "Even if in postmodern capitalism there is
> >
> > > > >> no longer a fixed scale that measures value, value nonetheless is
> >
> > > > >> still
> >
> > > > >> powerful and ubiquitous....In Empire, the construction of value
>takes
> >
> > > > >> place
> >
> > > > >> beyond measure."
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> and
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> "...outside measure refers to the impossibility of power's
> >
> > > > >> calculating and
> >
> > > > >> ordering production at a global level,  beyond measure refers to
>the
> >
> > > > >> vitality
> >
> > > > >> of the productive context, the expression of labor as desire, and
>its
> >
> > > > >> capacities to constitute the biopolitical fabric of Empre from
>below."
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> This entire chapter seems extremely fishy to me, really unclear
>and
> >
> > > > >> vaguely religious sounding. Can anyone clarify this section, or
>is it
> >
> > > > >> as
> >
> > > > >> silly as I think it is?
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> Tom
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> =====================
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> It has been quite a while since I perused E but I think it has to
>do
> >
> > > > >> with
> >
> > > > >> a problem pointed out by David Ricardo:
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> http://home.manhattan.edu/~fiona.maclachlan//research/Ricardo.htm
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > > I don't think that's Toni's problem, at least I've never seen any
> >
> > > > > indication of such. I think his problem derives from his
>conviction
> >
> > > > > that
> >
> > > > > the total subordination of life to capital makes it impossible to
> >
> > > > > differentiate between labor time and other time - all time becomes
> >
> > > > > labor
> >
> > > > > time - and if you can't differentiate you can't measure a distinct
> >
> > > > > time of
> >
> > > > > labor/value. The corrolary is that struggle is everywhere and also
> >
> > > > > immeasurable, thus the second paragraph quoted above. But struggle
>is
> >
> > > > > just
> >
> > > > > the creative content of living labor, thus a kind of neo-orthodox
> >
> > > > > vision
> >
> > > > > of revolution as living labor taking over. This vision pre-dates
>Empire
> >
> > > > > and his appropriation of Deleuze & Guattari, Foucault and
> >
> > > > > "biopolitics".
> >
> > > > > See:
> >
> > > > > http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/offenegri.html
> >
> > > > > H.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
>.......................................................................
> >
> > > > > .....
> >
> > > > > Snail-mail:
> >
> > > > > Harry Cleaver
> >
> > > > > University of Texas at Austin
> >
> > > > > Department of Economics
> >
> > > > > BRB 1.116
> >
> > > > > 1 University Station, C3100
> >
> > > > > Austin, Texas 78712-0301  USA
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Phone Numbers:
> >
> > > > > (hm)  (512) 442-5036
> >
> > > > > (off) (512) 475-8535
> >
> > > > > Fax:(512) 471-3510
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > E-mail:
> >
> > > > > hmcleave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Cleaver homepage:
> >
> > > > > http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/index.html
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Chiapas95 homepage:
> >
> > > > > http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/chiapas95.html
> >
> > > > >
>.......................................................................
> >
> > > > > .....
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >      --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > ----
> >
> > > > The money powers preys upon the nation in times of peace and
>conspires
> >
> > > > against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a
>monarchy,
> >
> > > > more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. It
> >
> > > > denounces, as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw
> >
> > > > light upon its crimes. Corporations have been enthroned, and an era
>of
> >
> > > > corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the
> >
> > > > country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the
> >
> > > > prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands
>of
> >
> > > > a few, and the Republic is destroyed.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Abraham Lincoln
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >      --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---
> >
> > > >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >............................................................................
> >
> > >Snail-mail:
> >
> > >Harry Cleaver
> >
> > >University of Texas at Austin
> >
> > >Department of Economics
> >
> > >BRB 1.116
> >
> > >1 University Station, C3100
> >
> > >Austin, Texas 78712-0301  USA
> >
> > >
> >
> > >Phone Numbers:
> >
> > >(hm)  (512) 442-5036
> >
> > >(off) (512) 475-8535
> >
> > >Fax:(512) 471-3510
> >
> > >
> >
> > >E-mail:
> >
> > >hmcleave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > >
> >
> > >Cleaver homepage:
> >
> > >http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/index.html
> >
> > >
> >
> > >Chiapas95 homepage:
> >
> > >http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/chiapas95.html
> >
> >
> >............................................................................
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >      --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------
> >
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>............................................................................
>Snail-mail:
>Harry Cleaver
>University of Texas at Austin
>Department of Economics
>BRB 1.116
>1 University Station, C3100
>Austin, Texas 78712-0301  USA
>
>Phone Numbers:
>(hm)  (512) 442-5036
>(off) (512) 475-8535
>Fax:(512) 471-3510
>
>E-mail:
>hmcleave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>Cleaver homepage:
>http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/index.html
>
>Chiapas95 homepage:
>http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/chiapas95.html
>............................................................................
>
>
>
>      --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---

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