Re: AUT: Re: Immeasurable value

["Lowe Laclau" <lowelaclau@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

hello Harry,

I'm pretty lost with all of these posts so, I'm just kinda jumping in here.

My perspective on Negri's immeasurability thesis is that he's not so much denying the quantifiability of our new postmodern labor as he is simply attempting to describe this process by which the use value of labor power goes from being a unit of measure is constructed outside of capitalist production and reproduction of society (exchange value) to one where a separation of exchange value completely collapses. The quantifiability is still there. Its is just not done external to the society of capital(s). And those things that are constructed outside a regime of capitalist production is immediately recouperated by it.

I agree with Tom that the chapter is very flowerfully written (perhaps thats not a real word...). Where I think they are attempting to enunciate the existence of something positive for the working class or the multitude is in the fact that they would postulate that the means of production are situated in our own brains. Thats the source of this vitality of the productive context. No longer does capital need be something external to our productive capacities. This is really what makes everything immeasurable from the perspective of the "below". The expression of labor as desire...? Well... I'm sure what he's getting at (sounds like Hardt).

Ciao

Lowe



>From: "Harry M. Cleaver" <hmcleave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>



>Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>To: <aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

>Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Immeasurable value

>Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:59:51 -0600 (CST)

>

>On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Tom Messmer wrote:

>

> > Harry,

> > Thanks, your comment and the second half of that article actually

> > clears it up a bit. I was taken aback by the fact that he seems to be

> > introducing some sort of diffuse, fuzzy ubervalue

>

>It's still LABOR value. For all his revisionism, Toni is still

>very wedded to the centrality of labor in human activity. Of course, by

>now everything is labor so his break with Marx is not from labor as the

>source of value, but from the measurability of labor - and in the process

>he loses all ability to say anything quantitatively useful.

>

>

> > created by their

> > every activity which seems to travel along with the Multitude wherever

> > it roams, its roaming now "heroic" rather  than probably just really

> > crappy for them.

>

>If the Multitude is just the working class writ large, creating yet

>harnessed in all its acts, then its roaming must be both crappy and

>heroic, exploited (tho this concept becomes indeterminate if you can't

>measure value) yet always struggling to free itself. What's missing in

>all this is any analysis of actual escape, of any exodus that has actually

>crossed the Red Sea and is doing something different. Which is why, for

>me, dispite its perceptiveness about capitalist tendencies toward moving

>beyond national forms of self-organization, Empire smacks of orthodoxy

>and critical theory in new clothes.

>

>H.

>

> >

> > All in all though, I did enjoy Empire, its a lively and thought

> > provoking read.

> > Tom

> >

> > On Mar 28, 2004, at 3:35 AM, Harry M. Cleaver wrote:

> >

> > > On Sat, 27 Mar 2004, Eubulides wrote:

> > >

> > >>

> > >> ----- Original Message -----

> > >> From: "Tom Messmer" <messmer@xxxxxxxxxxx>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> Does anyone have any insight into the section in Empire 4.1 on

> > >> "Immeasurability"?  They write:

> > >>

> > >>  "Even if in postmodern capitalism there is

> > >> no longer a fixed scale that measures value, value nonetheless is

> > >> still

> > >> powerful and ubiquitous....In Empire, the construction of value takes

> > >> place

> > >> beyond measure."

> > >>

> > >> and

> > >>

> > >> "...outside measure refers to the impossibility of power's

> > >> calculating and

> > >> ordering production at a global level,  beyond measure refers to the

> > >> vitality

> > >> of the productive context, the expression of labor as desire, and its

> > >> capacities to constitute the biopolitical fabric of Empre from below."

> > >>

> > >> This entire chapter seems extremely fishy to me, really unclear and

> > >> vaguely religious sounding. Can anyone clarify this section, or is it

> > >> as

> > >> silly as I think it is?

> > >>

> > >> Tom

> > >>

> > >> =====================

> > >>

> > >> It has been quite a while since I perused E but I think it has to do

> > >> with

> > >> a problem pointed out by David Ricardo:

> > >>

> > >> http://home.manhattan.edu/~fiona.maclachlan//research/Ricardo.htm

> > >>

> > > I don't think that's Toni's problem, at least I've never seen any

> > > indication of such. I think his problem derives from his conviction

> > > that

> > > the total subordination of life to capital makes it impossible to

> > > differentiate between labor time and other time - all time becomes

> > > labor

> > > time - and if you can't differentiate you can't measure a distinct

> > > time of

> > > labor/value. The corrolary is that struggle is everywhere and also

> > > immeasurable, thus the second paragraph quoted above. But struggle is

> > > just

> > > the creative content of living labor, thus a kind of neo-orthodox

> > > vision

> > > of revolution as living labor taking over. This vision pre-dates Empire

> > > and his appropriation of Deleuze & Guattari, Foucault and

> > > "biopolitics".

> > > See:

> > > http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/offenegri.html

> > > H.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > .......................................................................

> > > .....

> > > Snail-mail:

> > > Harry Cleaver

> > > University of Texas at Austin

> > > Department of Economics

> > > BRB 1.116

> > > 1 University Station, C3100

> > > Austin, Texas 78712-0301  USA

> > >

> > > Phone Numbers:

> > > (hm)  (512) 442-5036

> > > (off) (512) 475-8535

> > > Fax:(512) 471-3510

> > >

> > > E-mail:

> > > hmcleave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> > >

> > > Cleaver homepage:

> > > http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/index.html

> > >

> > > Chiapas95 homepage:

> > > http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/chiapas95.html

> > > .......................................................................

> > > .....

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >      --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---

> > >

> > >

> > ----

> > The money powers preys upon the nation in times of peace and conspires

> > against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy,

> > more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. It

> > denounces, as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw

> > light upon its crimes. Corporations have been enthroned, and an era of

> > corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the

> > country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the

> > prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of

> > a few, and the Republic is destroyed.

> >

> > Abraham Lincoln

> >

> >

> >

> >      --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---

> >

>

>............................................................................

>Snail-mail:

>Harry Cleaver

>University of Texas at Austin

>Department of Economics

>BRB 1.116

>1 University Station, C3100

>Austin, Texas 78712-0301  USA

>

>Phone Numbers:

>(hm)  (512) 442-5036

>(off) (512) 475-8535

>Fax:(512) 471-3510

>

>E-mail:

>hmcleave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>

>Cleaver homepage:

>http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/index.html

>

>Chiapas95 homepage:

>http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/chiapas95.html

>............................................................................

>

>

>

>

>      --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---




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