Re: AUT: Midnight Notes and East Timor

[Richard Collins <richard_collins1@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

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Hi All,

First, my previous post was a reply to Harald from a while back, his bits were in quotes. Sorry if that was confusing.

Second a response to Thiago:

Thiago wrote: "On the other hand, I think you are making a very misleading statement. The
East Timorese did a pretty good job of organising themselves... at a horrifying
cost: a third of them got wiped out."

Yes, but they were still very well organised. Their resistance combined with the struggle in Indonesia is what won them their independence. I think that kind of courage is worth celebrating. It almost always comes at a cost.

Thiago wrote: "Shocking as the abuses of the UN and Australia have been, they don't come even close to Indonesia was up to."

I don't think you can seperate Aust and UN from Indonesia, they were in cahoots, we all know this.

Thiago wrote: "I would seriously ask why Australia accepted that the country would be flattened before handed over; that's just not a very plausible calculation, not even for a very
average intellect like Downer."

They accepted it because they saw the necessity of sending a message to other provinces about the price of freedom. Aceh in particular is of a much higher strategic importance their are a number of Australian mining companies there and it is crucial to the Indonesian economy.

They wanted to assert their dominance over Indonesia but not to humiliate them completely.

Thiago wrote: "The other point - that even if they had supported it we should not have - is just a little bit ridiculous. I guess since you know what is good for East Timorese and women, we need not ask them their opinions."

Well in fact I do know a number of their opinions. But that's not the point. The point is that real solidarity is not about blindly accepting what an oppressed people want or think, its about doing your best to understand and contribute to their struggle.

Thiago wrote: "since it's them who pay the price if the decision is wrong, they should
make it."

Yes, Thiago, I am aware of how little influence my opinion has on the East Timorese. But "they" didn't make the decision, Xanana and Hose made it for them based on their best interests. This is another example of how patronising your position is. You end up assuming that a handful of elites speal for all East Timorese.

Thiago wrote: "Come to think of it, I have no idea how you reconcile one half of your
comment with the other: if they opinions don't matter unless they are right,
what difference does it make if there is more than one opinion?"

The point is that you could probably find an East Timorse or a Woman or an indigenous person to support ANY position on liberation, Thus this kind of logic is ridiculous. Hence instead, we try our best to understand the situation and to work out what we think about it.


Regards

Richard










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<P>Hi All,</P>
<P>First, my previous post was a reply to Harald from a while back, his bits were in quotes. Sorry if that was confusing.</P>
<P>Second a response to Thiago:</P>
<P>Thiago wrote: "On the other hand, I think you are making a very misleading statement. The <BR>East Timorese did a pretty good job of organising themselves... at a horrifying <BR>cost: a third of them got wiped out."</P>
<P>Yes, but they were still very well organised. Their resistance combined with the struggle in Indonesia is what won them their independence. I think that kind of courage is worth celebrating. It almost always comes at a cost.&nbsp;</P>
<P>Thiago wrote: "Shocking as the abuses of the UN and Australia have been, they don't come even close to Indonesia was up to."</P>
<P>I don't think you can seperate Aust and UN from Indonesia, they were in cahoots, we all know this.</P>
<P>Thiago wrote: "I would seriously ask why Australia accepted that the country would be flattened before handed over; that's just not a very plausible calculation, not even for a very <BR>average intellect like Downer."</P>
<P>They accepted it because they saw the necessity of sending a message to other provinces about the price of freedom. Aceh in particular is of a much higher strategic importance their are a number of Australian mining companies there and it is crucial to the Indonesian economy.</P>
<P>They wanted to assert their dominance over Indonesia but not to humiliate them completely.</P>
<P>Thiago wrote: "The other point - that even if they had supported it we should not have - is just a little bit ridiculous. I guess since you know what is good for East Timorese and women, we need not ask them their opinions."</P>
<P>Well in fact I do know a number of their opinions. But that's not the point. The point is that real solidarity is not about blindly accepting what an oppressed people want or think, its about doing your best to understand and contribute to their struggle.</P>
<P>Thiago wrote: "since it's them who pay the price if the decision is wrong, they should <BR>make it."</P>
<P>Yes, Thiago, I am aware of how little influence my opinion has on the East Timorese. But "they" didn't make the decision, Xanana and Hose made it for them based on their best interests. This is another example of how patronising your position is. You end up assuming that a handful of elites speal for all East Timorese.</P>
<P>Thiago wrote: "Come to think of it, I have no idea how you reconcile one half of your <BR>comment with the other: if they opinions don't matter unless they are right, <BR>what difference does it make if there is more than one opinion?"</P>
<P>The point is that you could probably find&nbsp;an East Timorse or a Woman or an indigenous person to support ANY position on liberation, Thus this kind of logic is ridiculous. Hence instead, we try our best to understand the situation and to work out what we think about it.<BR></P>
<P>Regards</P>
<P>Richard<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------<BR>This mail sent through IMP: www-mail.usyd.edu.au<BR><BR><BR>--- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---</P><p><br><hr size=1>
<a href="http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/?http://au.greetings.yahoo.com"; target=_blank><b>Yahoo! Greetings</b></a><br>
- Send your seasons greetings online this year!
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