Re: AUT: the destruction of Israel

["Nate Holdren" <nateholdren@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

hi Scott-
Thanks for sending this leaflet and responding to my questions.
I still disagree more or less entirely. I'm particularly unhappy with the
whole "the Jews are not a people" bit, especially when set against the
supposed legitimacy of the claim to statehood by the Palestinians.

I still don't understand the attachment to 'destroying Israel'.
Am I right in thinking that what you want is the geographical area governed
by the state of Israel and the mess that is the Palestinian areas all to be
replaced by one secular democratic (and I assume socialist) state? If this
is the case, does that state have to be called 'Palestine' rather than
Israel? Wouldn't the creation of this state involve just as much the
destruction of the Palestinian authority as it would the Israeli government?
I'd be much more comfortable behind a banner reading 'smash the Israeli
state and the Palestinian Authority' or 'neither Arafat nor Sharon (nor Bin
Laden nor Bush)' than I would behind one that said 'destroy Israel'.

Am I right that what you ultimately want is one state in the area? That's
how I understand "Independent Palestine, from the Jordan to the Sea", unless
my geography is totally wrong. Such a state would presumably have equal
rights for Jews, Palestinians, and others (being secular and pluralist). How
is it now that you differ from Harald again?

You oversimplify matters a little by saying that people in the US are
hesitant to get behind 'abolish Israel' because some of us benefit from
superexploited 3rd world workers to get our cheap petrol. Some of us are
hesitant to get behind that slogan because we don't want to sound like
anti-semites or give fascists any room whatsoever to infiltrate our
movements. Maybe the circumstances in your country are different, but here,
as I said, some fascist groups have tried to develop a presence within the
Palestinian solidarity movement.
I also think some people do get behind that slogan because they are
anti-semitic. This is exactly what some fascists here in the US have tried
to do. I can try to dig up some articles on this if you're interested. (I do
understand that 'destroy Israel' is not anti-semitic in all contexts, but
just as the Israeli right seeks to make Israel and Jews/Judaism synonymous
some anti-semites on the far right do the same thing such that their calls
to abolish Israel ARE antisemitic.)

I'm curious as to what you mean by saying Israel could never be anything
other than an apartheid state:
"The problem with slogans like 'Democratise Israel' and 'End apartheid in
the Holy Land' is that they can be interpreted as saying that Israel can be
reformed into a non-apartheid state, when it cannot be."

Why not? Would extending rights to Palestinians be more earth shattering in
Israel than the end of slavery and segregation was in the US or apartheid
was in South Africa?
Interestingly enough, you've changed gears here. Before I thought you were
arguing against Harald on the basis of what you take to be the reactionary
effects of his ideas if they were widely held. Here you've said (without any
support) that his ideas are just an impossible pipe-dream. That's a much
simpler issue, rather beat around the bush about what Harald does or does
not think about the Intifada, you could just say "Harald you're raising
totally impossible demand".

Scott, I'm unconvinced by your assertion that

"The true test of the slogan is how well it resonates
with peoples oppressed by imperialism, and there is no
doubt in my mind that it finds a receptive audience
there. In Auckland, I find that the non-white sections
of the population have a hugely different attitude
toward Israel to the rest of the population, though
even the Pakeha (white) population is much less
sympathetic to Israel than it used to be."

If oppressed peoples became convinced of Harald's position would that make
you and the SWP suddenly wrong? This is only speculation (no more unfounded
than your assertions above, though) but part of why I think the two-state
folks or 'abolish Israel' position may look attractive is that at least here
in the US they seem like the only game in town.
Many people are rightly outraged by the plight of Palestinians and for a lot
of folks the only solutions being offered that they hear are ones like
yours. Harald is the first person I ever heard call for something different,
and now I think he's right and I am embarassed I couldn't come up w/ it
before. A lot of my friends have similar responses when I raise this with
them.

Finally, Scott, do you include the suicide bombings are part of the
Palestinian armed response which you support? I'm not clear from your posts.

cheers,
Nate



>From: Scott Hamilton <s_h_hamilton@xxxxxxxxx>
>Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: AUT: the destruction of Israel
>Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:18:58 +0000 (GMT)
>
>
>Hi Nate,
>
>the leaflet I have reproduced below argues that it is
>the state of Israel itself which is anti-semitic, as
>well as anti-Palestinian, by its nature. As such, it
>differs fundamentally from an Arab state with a
>bourgeois leadership (say a Palestinian state led by
>Arafat). A better analogy would be South Africa or
>Northern Ireland. Calling for the destruction of
>Israel cannot therefore be anti-semitic. Indeed,
>making such a call has traditionally been a litmus
>test for revolutionaries, inside and outside of
>Israel.
>
>It is natural that you will encounter staunch
>opposition to the slogan 'destroy Israel' in countries
>like the US, imperialist countries whose working
>classes contain a strata which benefits appreciably
>from the superexploitation of the Third World, and in
>particular of the Arab world. Cheap petrol might not
>be so easy to get without Israel!
>
>The true test of the slogan is how well it resonates
>with peoples oppressed by imperialism, and there is no
>doubt in my mind that it finds a receptive audience
>there. In Auckland, I find that the non-white sections
>of the population have a hugely different attitude
>toward Israel to the rest of the population, though
>even the Pakeha (white) population is much less
>sympathetic to Israel than it used to be.
>
>The problem with slogans like 'Democratise Israel' and
>'End apartheid in the Holy Land' is that they can be
>interpreted as saying that Israel can be reformed into
>a non-apartheid state, when it cannot be.
>
>At the demo in Auckland on 26/10, which about 600-700
>people turned up to, the Anti Imperialist Coalition
>had a banner which said 'Independent Palestine, from
>the Jordan to the Sea' (AIC advocates a democratic
>secular Palestine, but doesn't say anything about
>socialism - that's been too way out for some of the
>people who turn up). Some of the chants we used were
>'Sharon, Sharon, what do you say? how many kids did
>you kill today?', 'From Auckland to Gaza, support the
>intifada' and 'Free, free Palestine, long live
>Palestine'.
>
>I recommend the texts on the site of the Israeli
>Socialist Workers League (no relation to the SWP in
>the US or UK) for good info and positions on Israel
>and Palestine
>http://www.swlp.org/
>
>ISRAEL  NO RIGHT TO EXIST
>
>With Israels ongoing invasion of the West Bank making
>headlines and provoking protests around the world, the
>origins of and solution to the war in the Holy Land
>are being debated by many New Zealanders. The Anti
>Imperialist Coalition argues that the replacement of
>Israel with a free Palestine is the only road to peace
>in the Holy Land. Such an argument obviously raises
>many questions
>
>We all know that the Palestinians have had a rough
>deal in the Holy Land, and that they deserve their own
>state. But doesnt Israel have the right to continue
>to exist in areas where the Israeli Jews are a
>majority? Wasnt this what the Oslo Accords were
>about?
>
>There is an immediate problem with this argument. The
>Israelis created a majority Jewish population in
>Palestine by forcibly expelling Palestinian Arabs in
>1947-49 and denying them and their families the right
>to return to the territory of their origin. At the
>same time, under the Law of Return, Jewish people of
>any nationality are entitled to Israeli citizenship
>upon arrival in Israel, even if they have never been
>there before. The only way Israel could create a
>Jewish majority population on its territory was to
>drive out 700,000 Palestinian people, prevent them and
>their children from returning, strip them of land
>ownership, and wage a series of wars against any
>Palestinians that resisted. The Oslo Accords, which
>were signed by Arafat without the consent of his own
>PLO organisation, let alone the Palestinian people
>themselves, offered not a viable state but a
>Bantustan. Under the terms of the accord, Arafats
>state would have constituted around 20% of the
>original Palestine, been broken into 220 pieces by
>Israeli roads and been pockmarked with armed Zionist
>settlements and Israeli army bases. Devoid of heavy
>industry or a proper infrastructure, such a state
>could have served only as a crash pad for Palestinians
>forced to cross its borders every day to work in
>Israel. No wonder so many Palestinians reject the Oslo
>Accords today.
>
>Why though do you judge the whole idea of Israel on
>the racist policies we have seen so far from people
>like Sharon?
>
>The problem is that there is no basis for a Jewish
>state except some common religious allegiances. There
>is no Jewish people, in the way that there is a
>Palestinian people or a Samoan people. The Jews from
>Western or Eastern Europe, Yemen, Mesopotamia,
>Maghreb, Central Asia, Kurdistan, the Caucasus, South
>Africa, the Middle East, Latin America, Australasia,
>India or Ethiopia had different histories, cultures,
>histories, traditions, religious practices, languages
>and races. Some of them evolved in a near complete
>isolation from other Jewish communities. There are
>many different Jewish religious congregations. The
>only thing that unites all of them is their common
>belief in the first Testament and in a common
>vindication of the old Jerusalem faith. A Jewish state
>can be created only around some religious allegiances
>because that is the only thing that all Jews share in
>common. Because Israel can never be a secular state,
>it can never offer equal legal and political rights to
>its non-Jewish inhabitants.  Israel must always be an
>apartheid state.
>
>
>At least, though, the Jewish majority of Israel has
>legal and political rights. You seem to want to drive
>them into the sea. Isnt that anti-Semitic?
>
>The fact is that Israel oppresses to most of its
>Jewish inhabitants as well as all of its Arab
>subjects. Like all apartheid states, it has a system
>based on different levels of privileges. The Arabs are
>the most oppressed. Among the Jews, Oriental Jews are
>oppressed by Azkanazim Jews of European origins. Many
>of the Yemeni Jews, for instance, were tricked into
>emigrating to Israel in the 1950s with promises of
>good jobs. When they arrived they were turned into
>indentured labourers in the Negev Desert, creating
>farmland out of the desert for Azkanazim capitalists.
>Many Iraqi Jews fled to Israel after the countrys
>secret service planted a bomb in Baghdads main
>synagogue and blamed Arab terrorists. The Black
>Jews, known as Falasha, suffer racism and
>discrimination: the Chief Rabbinate does not fully
>recognise them as having Jewish status. Because the
>laws of Israel are based on the patriarchal Judaic
>religion, women suffer institutionalised oppression.
>They are forbidden, for instance, to divorce without
>their husbands permission. Lying underneath all of
>these oppressions is the exploitation of Israels
>working class, and the increasing difficulties of
>Israels employer class. Israel is in deep economic
>crisis, with social spending and wage increases being
>sacrificed for military spending, and some leftist
>analysts see Sharons invasion of the West Bank as
>partly a response to a rise in working class struggle
>that saw Arab and Jewish workers demonstrating side by
>side outside government offices. Sharon desperately
>needs to derail the class struggle into a nationalist
>regional war, says the Socialist Workers League of
>Israel. Advocating a secular Palestinian state to
>replace Israel is not the same thing as advocating the
>ethnic cleansing of Israeli Jews, because Palestinian
>identity is not based on religious affiliation. There
>are Palestinians who are Muslim, Christian, Jewish,
>Druze, Samaritan, Bahai and of course atheists.
>Ex-Israeli Jews could live side by side with other
>Palestinians, without the having to face the war,
>medieval religious laws, or American domination that
>all Israelis currently face.
>
>Whats this about American domination?
>
>Well, America has always supported Israel over the
>Palestinians, because Israel is a guaranteed friend
>for America in the Middle East. Surrounded by Arab
>populations that hate it for its treatment of the
>Palestinians, Israel has only ever had Western
>imperialist powers like America to turn to for help.
>That suits the Americans fine  they can use Israel as
>a foothold in an oil-rich region, in return for
>throwing it billions of dollars worth of financial and
>military aid yearly. American help might seem on the
>surface like a good thing for working class Israeli
>Jews, but in reality they pay for Uncle Sams aid
>with dangerous lives in a  garrison state.
>
>What am I supposed to do about all of this, anyway?
>The New Zealand government supports Israel, doesnt
>it? How are you going to change that?
>
>Unfortunately, New Zealand governments have always
>supported Israel and its Western backers against the
>Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world. The
>current Clark-Anderton-Harre outfit has made some
>token noises condemning Sharons invasion of the West
>Bank, but refuses to recognise a Palestinian state.
>They refused, in fact, even to join in a recent UN
>vote condemning Sharons invasion of the West Bank.
>What would you expect, though, from a government that
>gives complete support to Bushs War on Terror,
>and is busy attacking civil rights at home with the
>racist Anti Terrorism Bill? Dont wait for the
>government to do something about Palestine  get
>involved with the New Zealand branch of the global
>grassroots campaign to break links with Israel and
>recognise and support Palestine.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  --- Nate Holdren <nateholdren@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >
>Hi Scott (Hamilton),
> >
> > You write in one of your posts on the
> > Israel/Palestine thread, about a point
> > Harald raised:
> >
> > "What this means, surely, is the destruction of the
> > state of Israel, and this is a worthy goal. But how
> > can Israel be destroyed?"
> >
> > I've not participated in this thread as I know less
> > about the situation than
> > the participants in this conversation, I've learned
> > a lot from you all,
> > reading your posts.
> >
> > I'm curious, though why you use the language of
> > 'destroy Israel'? I think
> > what you're after is a revolution in the region
> > after which the state of
> > Israel and Palestinian Authority as they currently
> > are would no longer
> > exist. Is this right or have I misunderstood you?
> > I probably disagree with your picture of what such a
> > revolution looks like,
> > but aside from that, I wonder at the use of this
> > language of destroy Israel.
> > (It certainly wouldn't be a worthwhile slogan
> > 'destroy the Palestinian
> > Authority'.)
> >
> > The reason I'm concerned is that lately in the US a
> > number of fascist groups
> > have targeted the Palestinian solidarity movement as
> > an arena for fascist
> > activity, holding demonstrations against the Israeli
> > embassy and so forth.
> > Thankfully the movement, or at least the parts I'm
> > loosely familiar with,
> > have explicitly rejected this and have been at pains
> > to demonstrate they're
> > not anti-semitic. Anarchist anti-fascists have been
> > very active in this
> > movement, at least here in Chicago, and have been
> > major players  in seeking
> > to expose and oppose the actions of fascists around
> > this issue.
> >
> > To be clear, I'm convinced of the rightness of
> > Harald's suggested strategy
> > and the wrongness of yours, but regardless of that,
> > in either case, one
> > could describe the result of success (whether of
> > Harald's "extend rights"
> > position or yours) as 'the destruction of Israel' or
> > as 'the creation of a
> > democratic, secular, non-racist Israel'. (You might
> > add socialist to that
> > list, I doubt Harald would.)
> > What I'm confused about is why you choose the
> > 'destroy' vocabulary. Maybe
> > there's not the same problem with resurgent fascism
> > in your country as there
> > is here? I know for me here I would have little to
> > no organizing success
> > with anyone who I'd want success with under the
> > slogan 'destroy Israel', it
> > only plays into the hands of fascists and other
> > anti-semites.
> >
> > 'Democratize Israel' or 'end Apartheid in the Holy
> > Land' or even 'free
> > Palestine' seem much better (though 'free Palestine'
> > at demonstrations
> > unfortunately often turns into the uncomfortable
> > 'long live Palestine',
> > especially when the local vangaurdists have seized
> > the means of sonic
> > amplification. My personal favorite chant has been
> > 'long live the Intidada'
> > which some of us have tried to turn into 'globalize
> > the Intifada'.)
> >
> > best,
> > Nate
> >
> >
> >
> >
>_________________________________________________________________
> > Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try
> > MSN!
> >
>http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
> >
> >
> >
> >      --- from list
> > aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---
>
>=====
>"Revolution is not like cricket, not even one day cricket"
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Everything you'll ever need on one web page
>from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
>http://uk.my.yahoo.com
>
>
>      --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---


_________________________________________________________________
Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp



     --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---