Re: AUT: Re: Academia....

["Tahir Wood" <twood@xxxxxxxxx>]

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How many times can the two of you say the same thing to each other? This =
is not interesting. Sorry, don't mean to be rude but....
Tahir

>>> nateholdren@xxxxxxxxxxx 10/24/02 09:18PM >>>
Hi Sean-
I'm still not clear on what you mean by 'reactionary'.

If you mean that the people largely in charge of universities have =
political=20
beliefs that are vastly counter to ours, I agree.

If you mean that the function of the university within capitalism is one =
of=20
maintaining and advancing capitalist social relations as well as solving=20=

problems for capital via research, then I also agree.

On the other hand, after the revolution we can put to use some research =
done=20
in universities for other purposes, like sustainable agriculture=20
(permaculture), possibly computer technology, etc.

Also, while the net result of the university might be to uphold the=20
institutions of capital, universities DO result in other things counter =
to=20
capitalism (in the sense that Marx spoke about capital producing its =
own=20
grave diggers). The same goes for factories and so forth.

At some point Marx says that one principle product of labor under capital =
is=20
to (re)produce the social relations of capitalism. In so far as we =
perform=20
labor under capitalism we help reproduce the social system of capitalism. =
At=20
the same time, our work may have other impacts (nurse, for example, may =
help=20
keep alive people who will be future revolutionaries, truck drivers =
deliver=20
food that feeds people, etc). Furthermore, the experiences and relationship=
s=20
we have and build at work can be potentially revolutionary or disruptive =
of=20
capital (messing around w/ co-workers on the job, friendships made,=20
workplace committees, etc).

Your perspective as you presented sounds as if you see the university =
as=20
monolithic, as having no contradictions or antagonism internal to it. I=20
think there are huge contradictions in universities and furthermore =
that=20
these contradictions can impact struggles elsewhere (and vice versa).

re: students who are active and so forth, I do think you're right that =
it's=20
not a good thing when people on campuses act or think like the campus is =
a=20
hermetically sealed environment. What happens on campuses is influenced =
by=20
what happens off campus. At the same time, what happens on campuses can=20
impact life off campuses (like the recent fights around wages and =
benefits=20
for janitors in Boston, or the shutting down of universities leading to=20
increased participation from people off campuses in protest and other=20
radical activities in the late 60's and early 70's.) These are not =
wholly=20
separate spheres, the university and the outside of the university =
permeate=20
in a variety of ways (ditto the family, the factory, etc) without being=20
totally indistinguishable.

To me this comes back to the importance of the circulation of struggles. =
But=20
even if they don't circulate in the sense of active networking, I do =
think=20
that struggles in one sphere of capital can open up possibilities =
elsewhere.=20
The disruption of capital in one arena can lead to an over all systemic=20
crisis or crises in other arenas (like the Zapatista rebellion impacting =
the=20
Mexican stock market which influenced world capitalism which then =
impacts=20
the playing field on which a host of other struggles occur.)

I hope this makes sense.

best wishes,
Nate





>From: asc <satellitecrash@xxxxxxxxx>
>Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Academia....
>Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:28:08 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>--- Nate Holdren <nateholdren@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Hi Sean-
> > Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here. I just don't
> > get how you can view
> > academic institutions as reactionary and nothing
> > but. I've already agreed
> > with the reactionary role of them (agreeing on
> > intuition though, as neither
> > of us has made a case which would convince the
> > skeptical), but it's more
> > than a matter of being a site of production of
> > ultraleft theory.
> >
> > Loads of folks get their first experiences in
> > radical ideas,
> > dissatisfaction, and action at universities. Sure,
> > there's other routes to
> > this and the university is not especially necessary
> > to this, but to say
> > they're only reactionary just seems silly to me.
> > I'd say the same for the institution of the factory
> > or trade unions or
> > nearly any other institution. I don't like the
> > function of the factory in
> > capitalism and will one day see it abolished, but it
> > seems wrong to me to
> > say that the factory is a site wholly reactionary,
> > as factories can be
> > places for people's first radicalizing experiences
> > with ideas,
> > dissatisfaction, and the action of resistance.
>
>Hello Nate,
>i don't know i think factories, workplaces, are more
>of a waste of time and/or produce things that are
>wants not needs than they are reactionary...
>universities are places where ideas and dialogues
>about ideas are placed front and center, and not
>production, or offering a service or whatever... so in
>that the majority of theory and ideas being advocated
>in universities are based on forwarding a system of
>exploitation of humans and the earth that has no
>future and can only lead to an impasse for the human
>race i think universities are purely reactionary...
>while workplaces can't really be classified as
>progressive, radical, reactionary or whatever... i'm
>just trying to say if you look at the great majority
>of university production it's not critical of this
>system, it's not talking about revolution or building
>something different than the system we live under,
>it's just a reactionary institution forwarding largely
>reactionary solutions to capitalisms crises... insofar
>as student movement's pick only the university as the
>locus of whatever it is that motivates them to
>mobilize i'm not sure how useful that is in terms of
>undermining capitalism...
>
> > I know this is very schematic, but I prefer to
> > approach nearly all
> > subsections of capitalism as being shot through with
> > antagonisms that
> > reproduce the antagonism of capital and labor. Your
> > take on academics seems
> > very one sided and monolithic.
> >
> > There are also examples historically both of
> > students and academics making
> > valuable contributions to struggles and of radicals
> > using university
> > institutions as resources to plunder toward
> > revolutionary ends. Like the
> > League of Revolutionary Black Workers
> > use of the university newspaper to build their
> > movement at the level of
> > ideas, communication, and finances, or the actions
> > of the Strasbourg
> > Situationists to do the same.
> > Of course both these examples were short-lived and
> > brought down the force of
> > the state, but I don't see how this means the
> > academy equals pure
> > reactionary.
> > Again, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or maybe this
> > is another issue that
> > as Harald often notes is not easily worked out
> > through short emails but
> > requires longer essays or something.
> >
> > Sean, by your lights do you see struggles in
> > academia as entirely worthless?
>
>that's what i'm coming to grips with and trying to
>figure out, i consider myself to be a community
>activist, i'm not in college anymore but i know some
>student activists i advise them to do community stuff,
>and i don't go to any events that seem geared toward
>campus only... that's all the time i have right now...
>love and rage,
>-Sean
> >
> > best wishes,
> > Nate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: asc <satellitecrash@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Academia....
> > >Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:46:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >Hello Nate,
> > >I disagree and I don't think I really overstated
> > >anything...
> > >
> > >I would agree, though, that my analysis
> > problematizes,
> > >for one, student movements as a social movement
> > (that
> > >is to say student movements have played valuable
> > roles
> > >in many nation's politics), but i just think it's
> > >erroneous to call any academic department
> > 'radical'...
> > >basically because of the reactionary nature of the
> > >university and the university's role in turning out
> > >sheep, but also b/c of the apathy and distaste for
> > >organizing of the intellectuals, and the antagonism
> > >that one often finds between universities and the
> > >larger communities that they are situated in (no
> > >organic bonds being fostered to develope a true
> > >community of resistance)...
> > >
> > >so everything i've suggested really problematizes
> > the
> > >role of the university for anarchists and
> > libertarian
> > >communists, but hopefully most of us are busily
> > >involved with social movements, and we have plenty
> > of
> > >time to figure this out...
> > >love and rage,
> > >-Sean
> > >
> > >p.s. sorry if there are any typo's my computer is
> > >messed...
> > >
> > >p.p.s. the fact that the university turns out some
> > >ultra-left theory i don't think is significant...
> > >prisons also turn out ultra left theory i recommend
> > >lorenzo komboa ervin's 'anarchism and the black
> > >revolution'...
> > >
> > >--- Nate Holdren <nateholdren@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > Hi Sean-
> > > > No disrespect, but I think you take good points
> > and
> > > > overstate them, making
> > > > your analysis pretty inadqeuate. I think I agree
> > > > that the function of the
> > > > university as a site internal to capitalist
> > society
> > > > is a reactionary one,
> > > > maintaining and advancing social relations of
> > > > capitalism. No one in the
> > > > discussion on this or on students has really
> > made a
> > > > strong argument for the
> > > > reactionary nature of the university, myself
> > > > included, but I do think this
> > > > is right.
> > > >
> > > > Still though, to say that universities and
> > colleges
> > > > produce wholly or solely
> > > > reactionary results seems silly to me. Like any
> > > > other place in capital, the
> > > > university is a site of antagonistic struggle,
> > and
> > > > its behaviors are a
> > > > result of the outcome of struggles. The reason I
> > say
> > > > this is that your take
> > > > sounds very close to advocating abandoning the
> > > > university as a site of
> > > > struggle. The point that "hey there's a world
> > beyond
> > > > the campus" is one that
> > > > many students regularly forget (at least I did)
> > but
> > > > struggles on and in
> > > > sites of higher education (by students,
> > teachers,
> > > > and various staff) are a
> > > > part of the antagonism which characterizes every
> > > > moment of capitalist
> > > > society. To make the 'real world/campus world'
> > > > dichotomy sounds very close
> > > > to a host of historical examples of people
> > saying
> > > > where the struggle is (the
> > > > factory) and where it's not (the bedroom, the
> > > > kitchen, the segregated buses,
> > > > etc).
> > > > Plus, it simply is the case that SOME folks
> > employed
> > > > in the academy DO read
> > > > and propagate ultra-left ideas, including some
> > folks
> > > > who are on this list.
> > > >
> > > > all the best,
> > > > Nate
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: asc <satellitecrash@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > >Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > >To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > >Subject: AUT: Re: Academia....
> > > > >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:08:14 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > >
> > > > >Hi autopsy,
> > > > >just want to get my two cents in on the
> > academia
> > > > >debate that seems to have morphed into
> > something
> > > > else
> > > > >(like everything thread on the list), but
> > anyway
> > > > i'm
> > > > >surprised no one has advocated the position
> > that
> >
>=3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D
>
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>"You never ask why you've got a career,
>but there is a reason why we're here,
>Don't be busy doing nothing!"
>     -Shelter-
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
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>
>      --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---


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