Re: AUT: Re: Academia....

["Nate Holdren" <nateholdren@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Sean-
I'm still not clear on what you mean by 'reactionary'.

If you mean that the people largely in charge of universities have political
beliefs that are vastly counter to ours, I agree.

If you mean that the function of the university within capitalism is one of
maintaining and advancing capitalist social relations as well as solving
problems for capital via research, then I also agree.

On the other hand, after the revolution we can put to use some research done
in universities for other purposes, like sustainable agriculture
(permaculture), possibly computer technology, etc.

Also, while the net result of the university might be to uphold the
institutions of capital, universities DO result in other things counter to
capitalism (in the sense that Marx spoke about capital producing its own
grave diggers). The same goes for factories and so forth.

At some point Marx says that one principle product of labor under capital is
to (re)produce the social relations of capitalism. In so far as we perform
labor under capitalism we help reproduce the social system of capitalism. At
the same time, our work may have other impacts (nurse, for example, may help
keep alive people who will be future revolutionaries, truck drivers deliver
food that feeds people, etc). Furthermore, the experiences and relationships
we have and build at work can be potentially revolutionary or disruptive of
capital (messing around w/ co-workers on the job, friendships made,
workplace committees, etc).

Your perspective as you presented sounds as if you see the university as
monolithic, as having no contradictions or antagonism internal to it. I
think there are huge contradictions in universities and furthermore that
these contradictions can impact struggles elsewhere (and vice versa).

re: students who are active and so forth, I do think you're right that it's
not a good thing when people on campuses act or think like the campus is a
hermetically sealed environment. What happens on campuses is influenced by
what happens off campus. At the same time, what happens on campuses can
impact life off campuses (like the recent fights around wages and benefits
for janitors in Boston, or the shutting down of universities leading to
increased participation from people off campuses in protest and other
radical activities in the late 60's and early 70's.) These are not wholly
separate spheres, the university and the outside of the university permeate
in a variety of ways (ditto the family, the factory, etc) without being
totally indistinguishable.

To me this comes back to the importance of the circulation of struggles. But
even if they don't circulate in the sense of active networking, I do think
that struggles in one sphere of capital can open up possibilities elsewhere.
The disruption of capital in one arena can lead to an over all systemic
crisis or crises in other arenas (like the Zapatista rebellion impacting the
Mexican stock market which influenced world capitalism which then impacts
the playing field on which a host of other struggles occur.)

I hope this makes sense.

best wishes,
Nate





>From: asc <satellitecrash@xxxxxxxxx>
>Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Academia....
>Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:28:08 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>--- Nate Holdren <nateholdren@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Hi Sean-
> > Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here. I just don't
> > get how you can view
> > academic institutions as reactionary and nothing
> > but. I've already agreed
> > with the reactionary role of them (agreeing on
> > intuition though, as neither
> > of us has made a case which would convince the
> > skeptical), but it's more
> > than a matter of being a site of production of
> > ultraleft theory.
> >
> > Loads of folks get their first experiences in
> > radical ideas,
> > dissatisfaction, and action at universities. Sure,
> > there's other routes to
> > this and the university is not especially necessary
> > to this, but to say
> > they're only reactionary just seems silly to me.
> > I'd say the same for the institution of the factory
> > or trade unions or
> > nearly any other institution. I don't like the
> > function of the factory in
> > capitalism and will one day see it abolished, but it
> > seems wrong to me to
> > say that the factory is a site wholly reactionary,
> > as factories can be
> > places for people's first radicalizing experiences
> > with ideas,
> > dissatisfaction, and the action of resistance.
>
>Hello Nate,
>i don't know i think factories, workplaces, are more
>of a waste of time and/or produce things that are
>wants not needs than they are reactionary...
>universities are places where ideas and dialogues
>about ideas are placed front and center, and not
>production, or offering a service or whatever... so in
>that the majority of theory and ideas being advocated
>in universities are based on forwarding a system of
>exploitation of humans and the earth that has no
>future and can only lead to an impasse for the human
>race i think universities are purely reactionary...
>while workplaces can't really be classified as
>progressive, radical, reactionary or whatever... i'm
>just trying to say if you look at the great majority
>of university production it's not critical of this
>system, it's not talking about revolution or building
>something different than the system we live under,
>it's just a reactionary institution forwarding largely
>reactionary solutions to capitalisms crises... insofar
>as student movement's pick only the university as the
>locus of whatever it is that motivates them to
>mobilize i'm not sure how useful that is in terms of
>undermining capitalism...
>
> > I know this is very schematic, but I prefer to
> > approach nearly all
> > subsections of capitalism as being shot through with
> > antagonisms that
> > reproduce the antagonism of capital and labor. Your
> > take on academics seems
> > very one sided and monolithic.
> >
> > There are also examples historically both of
> > students and academics making
> > valuable contributions to struggles and of radicals
> > using university
> > institutions as resources to plunder toward
> > revolutionary ends. Like the
> > League of Revolutionary Black Workers
> > use of the university newspaper to build their
> > movement at the level of
> > ideas, communication, and finances, or the actions
> > of the Strasbourg
> > Situationists to do the same.
> > Of course both these examples were short-lived and
> > brought down the force of
> > the state, but I don't see how this means the
> > academy equals pure
> > reactionary.
> > Again, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or maybe this
> > is another issue that
> > as Harald often notes is not easily worked out
> > through short emails but
> > requires longer essays or something.
> >
> > Sean, by your lights do you see struggles in
> > academia as entirely worthless?
>
>that's what i'm coming to grips with and trying to
>figure out, i consider myself to be a community
>activist, i'm not in college anymore but i know some
>student activists i advise them to do community stuff,
>and i don't go to any events that seem geared toward
>campus only... that's all the time i have right now...
>love and rage,
>-Sean
> >
> > best wishes,
> > Nate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: asc <satellitecrash@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Academia....
> > >Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:46:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >Hello Nate,
> > >I disagree and I don't think I really overstated
> > >anything...
> > >
> > >I would agree, though, that my analysis
> > problematizes,
> > >for one, student movements as a social movement
> > (that
> > >is to say student movements have played valuable
> > roles
> > >in many nation's politics), but i just think it's
> > >erroneous to call any academic department
> > 'radical'...
> > >basically because of the reactionary nature of the
> > >university and the university's role in turning out
> > >sheep, but also b/c of the apathy and distaste for
> > >organizing of the intellectuals, and the antagonism
> > >that one often finds between universities and the
> > >larger communities that they are situated in (no
> > >organic bonds being fostered to develope a true
> > >community of resistance)...
> > >
> > >so everything i've suggested really problematizes
> > the
> > >role of the university for anarchists and
> > libertarian
> > >communists, but hopefully most of us are busily
> > >involved with social movements, and we have plenty
> > of
> > >time to figure this out...
> > >love and rage,
> > >-Sean
> > >
> > >p.s. sorry if there are any typo's my computer is
> > >messed...
> > >
> > >p.p.s. the fact that the university turns out some
> > >ultra-left theory i don't think is significant...
> > >prisons also turn out ultra left theory i recommend
> > >lorenzo komboa ervin's 'anarchism and the black
> > >revolution'...
> > >
> > >--- Nate Holdren <nateholdren@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > Hi Sean-
> > > > No disrespect, but I think you take good points
> > and
> > > > overstate them, making
> > > > your analysis pretty inadqeuate. I think I agree
> > > > that the function of the
> > > > university as a site internal to capitalist
> > society
> > > > is a reactionary one,
> > > > maintaining and advancing social relations of
> > > > capitalism. No one in the
> > > > discussion on this or on students has really
> > made a
> > > > strong argument for the
> > > > reactionary nature of the university, myself
> > > > included, but I do think this
> > > > is right.
> > > >
> > > > Still though, to say that universities and
> > colleges
> > > > produce wholly or solely
> > > > reactionary results seems silly to me. Like any
> > > > other place in capital, the
> > > > university is a site of antagonistic struggle,
> > and
> > > > its behaviors are a
> > > > result of the outcome of struggles. The reason I
> > say
> > > > this is that your take
> > > > sounds very close to advocating abandoning the
> > > > university as a site of
> > > > struggle. The point that "hey there's a world
> > beyond
> > > > the campus" is one that
> > > > many students regularly forget (at least I did)
> > but
> > > > struggles on and in
> > > > sites of higher education (by students,
> > teachers,
> > > > and various staff) are a
> > > > part of the antagonism which characterizes every
> > > > moment of capitalist
> > > > society. To make the 'real world/campus world'
> > > > dichotomy sounds very close
> > > > to a host of historical examples of people
> > saying
> > > > where the struggle is (the
> > > > factory) and where it's not (the bedroom, the
> > > > kitchen, the segregated buses,
> > > > etc).
> > > > Plus, it simply is the case that SOME folks
> > employed
> > > > in the academy DO read
> > > > and propagate ultra-left ideas, including some
> > folks
> > > > who are on this list.
> > > >
> > > > all the best,
> > > > Nate
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: asc <satellitecrash@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > >Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > >To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > >Subject: AUT: Re: Academia....
> > > > >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:08:14 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > >
> > > > >Hi autopsy,
> > > > >just want to get my two cents in on the
> > academia
> > > > >debate that seems to have morphed into
> > something
> > > > else
> > > > >(like everything thread on the list), but
> > anyway
> > > > i'm
> > > > >surprised no one has advocated the position
> > that
> >
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
>=====
>"You never ask why you've got a career,
>but there is a reason why we're here,
>Don't be busy doing nothing!"
>     -Shelter-
>
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