Re: AUT: Priviledging economics over psychology....

["Harald Beyer-Arnesen" <haraldba@xxxxxxxxx>]

----- Original Message -----
From: "commie zero zero"
Sent: 16. juli 2002 05.48
Subject: Re: AUT: Priviledging economics over psychology....


Isaiah 45:14: This is what the Lord says: "The profit [Heb "labor,"
which stands metonymically for the fruits of labor, either
"monetary profit," or "products."]  of Egypt and the revenue
[Or, perhaps, "merchandise."] of Ethiopia, along with the
Sabeans, those tall men, will be brought to you and become yours.
They will walk behind you, coming along in chains.They will bow
down to you and pray to you: 'Truly God is with you; he has no
peer; there is no other God!'"

---

Commie00, you seem to read the Bible as you read Marx. You
see what you want to see there, and nothing more, even when it
stares you in the eye.

You write: "as steve pointed out there are several kinds of
"christianities" that don't believe in hell... "

He did not Commie. He mentioned one kind, Christian Scientist,
and added "I imagine Quakers may be similar, although
I don't know."  That is not the same as "point[ing] out there are
several ...," is it?  I mention this as I feel that this is often how
you communicate your reading of texts. I don't see you at
as being dishonest to others, only to yourself.

Sorry, but due to this I am not really know what to make out
of your claim  that there are "multiple catholic theologies that
deny the existance of hell altogether,"  though it might be true.
Nate wrote that "I'm pretty sure the catholic monk Thomas
Merton tried to posit a christianity w/ out hell".

Then you write: "as for christ, in the original greek versions
of the bible, christ never once mentions hell. and its been a
while since i've read the bible, but i'm pretty sure he never
mentions it in the english translations, either. .."

You may believe that, but this hardly makes it truer. You seem
to be under the impression that the original Greek version was
more "progressive," while the opposite is more likely closer
to the truth. As I mentioned in my last post, I have not looked
into these things for years, and my main source-book from
back then seem to have got lost, but I don't think my memory
is quite that bad. I will return to the hell-thing further down
but first, a taste of a more literal translation from Greek.

Matthew: 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom
the master has put in charge of his household, to give the other
slaves their food at the proper time? 24:46 Blessed is that
slave whom the master finds at work when he comes. 24:47 I
tell you the truth, the master will put him in charge of all his
possessions. 24:48 But if that evil slave should say to himself,
'My master is staying away a long time,' 24:49 and he begins
to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with drunkards,
24:50 then the master of that slave will come on a day when
he does not expect him and at an hour he does not foresee,
24:51 and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with
the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Don't you just love that line; " Blessed is that slave whom the
master finds at work when he comes." Of course, in most Bible
translations they have sweetened the pill a bit by translating
the Greek "dou'lo" to "servant". The most accurate translation
is said to be "bondservant".

And while we are at it:

Matthew: 8:5 "When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him
asking for help: 8:6 "Lord,12 my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in
terrible anguish." 8:7 Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him."
8:8 But the centurion replied, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come
under my roof. Instead, just say the word and my servant will be healed.
8:9  For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I say
to this one, 'Go' and he goes, and to another 'Come' and he comes,
and to my slave 'Do this' and he does it."19 8: When Jesus heard this
he was amazed and said to those who followed him, "I tell you the
truth, I have not found such faith in anyone in Israel!"

Real anarchy this, don't you think so?

Now let us approach hell.

Matthew: 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels
with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 25:32 All the nations
will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another
like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 25:33 He will put the
sheep on his right and the goats on his left. [...] 25:41 "Then he will say
to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire
that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! [...] 25:46 And these
will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Stll no direct mention of hell. But "into the eternal fire" and "into
eternal punishment" is not be misunderstood is it?  Nice thing
for kids, don't you think so? I think I prefer the Endlösung. At least
it had an end.

Here is another nice one:

Luke: 19:27 "But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me
to be their king [in Greek " did not want me to rule over them."], bring
them here and slaughter them in front of me."

Not eternal hellfire but still not very nice and humantarian, and for sure
not very anarchistic.

Then:

Matthew: " 13:40 As the weeds are collected and burned with fire,
so it will be at the end of the age. 13:41 The Son of Man will send
his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that
causes sin as well as all lawbreakers. 13:42 They will throw them
into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing
of teeth."

Matthew. 23:33 "You snakes, you offspring of vipers! How will you
escape being condemned to hell?"

Matthew: 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but
cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who is able to destroy
both soul and body in hell."

And so on.

"Hell" is in the Greek original rendered as "Gehenna," which is a
transliteration of the Hebrew words ge hinnom ("Valley of Hinnom").
This was the valley along the south side of Jerusalem. In Old Testament
 times it was used for human sacrifices to the pagan god Molech
(cf. Jer 7:31; 19:5-6; 32:35), and it came to be used as a place
where human excrement and rubbish were disposed of and burned.
In the intertestamental period, it came to be used symbolically as
the place of divine punishment.

I want even go into the Old Testament or the Revelation.

As for Satan, he probably originated in Zoroastrianism. The Old
God of Judaism very much combined the role of God and Satan.
(Though the later some times playing the role of the former's servant.
in the role of the "devils advocate" one might almost say.)

Isaiah 45:6-7 "... I am the Lord, I have no peer. I am the one who
forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace
and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all
these things."

Job 9:22-23 "It is all one! That is why I say, 'He destroys the blameless
and the guilty.' If a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks at the
despair of the innocent." [The "he," being God]

Lamentations 3:37-38" Whose command was ever fulfilled unless
the Lord had decreed it? From the mouth of the Most High does it
not go forth, both evil and good?"


But in the somewaht misnamed "intertestamental period" (300
BCE to 100 CE) this changed. "During the last three centuries
before Christ's birth, the portrayal of Satan underwent a major
change. The Zoroastrian / Persian dualism concept appeared
in Jewish writing: God was now looked upon as wholly good;
Satan as profoundly evil. History was seen as a battle between
them. No longer was Satan simply God's prosecuting attorney,
helper, or lackey. Satan, and his demons, were now humanity's
greatest enemies."

"Jesus and his disciples accepted the common belief of the 1st
century CE that mental illness and some physical ailments were
caused by indwelling demons. "Unclean spirits" are mentioned
7 times in Mark, once in Matthew, 3 times in Luke and once in
Revelation. A "dumb spirit" and a "deaf spirit" are each mentioned
once in Mark. Luke talks about a "spirit of infirmity" in his gospel,
and, a "spirit of divination" & an "evil spirit" in Acts. The concept
of "violent possession" appears for the first time in Scripture.
Demons are believed to posses individuals and cause them to
mutilate themselves, to collapse, to foam at the mouth, to thrash
around on the ground. Demons are seen as the cause of many
physical disabilities, including blindness, spinal deformities,
inability to speak. Satan figures prominently throughout the
Christian Scriptures: Jesus is tempted by Satan (Matthew 4:1-3,
Luke 4:2). The Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out
demons in the name of "Beelzebub, the prince of the demons
" (Matthew 12:24)"

"In the writings of Paul and the other apostles, the character
and range of activities of Satan and his demons is further
developed. God and Satan are seen as the two most powerful
forces in the universe. The duality between an all-good God
and all- evil Satan is firmly established."

( The above quotes are taken from
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm )


But you are of course right in that this all reached its highest stage
in the Middle Ages, but certainly not in sating "there is no "satan"
to speak of" in the gospels, the New Testament and early Christianity.
This belief in an virgin, uncorrupted beginning is precisely the
mark of fundamentalism. You even seem to reproduce the
strong duality of evil and good within Christanity athe same moment
as  denying it. It reminds me somewhat of primitivism.

At last "there are some catholic theologies that argue that there
is no heaven either, but that it is a state of mind as well, if anything...
there are even some that argue that "god" is the some *material*
total of the process of all life, etc. and that there is no soul, no
conscious god-being seperate from us, etc."

There have "always" been some individuals who have argued this.
It is very doubtful however, that when it reaches the stage where " "god"
is some *material* total of the process of all life, etc. and that
there is no soul, no conscious god-being seperate from us, etc.""
it is at all meaningful to speak of Christianity and Catholicism
any longer.

Harald

I've used "The NET Bible, New English Translation" throughout.

















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