aut-op-sy
mailing list archive
[ Other Periods
| Other mailing lists
| Search
]
Date:
[ Previous
| Next
]
Thread:
[ Previous
| Next
]
Index:
[ Author
| Date
| Thread
]
Re: AUT: cognitive mapping
- Subject: Re: AUT: cognitive mapping
- From: "cwright" <cwright@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:44:55 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C22831.1F189B10
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris(h)
One of the back issues of Common Sense had an article called "No =
Politics without Inquiry" (I'll look it up), and of course there is =
Marx's own notes on a possible workers' inquiry from, I think, the =
1870's. Its on marxists.org.
Cheers,
Chris(w)
"In a world which really is topsy-turvy, the true is a moment of the =
false." - Debord
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Chris Hurl=20
To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: AUT: cognitive mapping
Hey Chris,
Thanks for the feedback.
I am very interested in these worker's inquiries of which you speak... =
Can you recommend any books/articles on this topic?
chris(h)
>From: cwright=20
>Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
>To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
>Subject: Re: AUT: cognitive mapping=20
>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:52:50 -0500=20
>=20
>Hey Nate,=20
>=20
>I'm just gonna say that insight into how capital works and aspects of =
policy=20
>is still not the same as giving insight into the psychological =
processes of=20
>revolutionaries in order to better manipulate them. However, I really =
don't=20
>have an opinion on this whole cognitive mapping idea in the first =
place.=20
>How different is it, for example, from a kind of workers' inquiry =
project?=20
>The intent of the workers' inquiry involved getting people active in=20
>understanding their own oppression, but not under the assumption that =
they=20
>were passive, but that the kind of knowledge generated was also an =
activity=20
>which informed and assisted the workers interviewed and helped build =
links=20
>between 'non-revolutionary workers' and revolutionaries. At the sime =
time,=20
>such a project could be all too useful for capital, but its a matter =
of what=20
>the intent is, in the way that Freiere's pedagogy was about creating =
the=20
>feeling among the peasants he worked with that their thoughts =
mattered and=20
>that the fact that they thought mattered. Of course, that might be =
more=20
>consciousness mongering...=20
>=20
>But when the term is put as a kind of 'cognitive mapping', I'm just =
not sure=20
>what of make of it. 'Mapping' already seems to be a philosophically =
errant=20
>process, such as mapping concepts to objects, which already puts the=20
>concepts outside the objects and is laden with huge problems. Maybe =
this is=20
>cool with the Deleuzians (though a philosophy of immanence would seem =
to not=20
>welcome this either, possibly), but for Hegelian Marxists this should =
>already smack of problems. But its only a feeling, a hinting at =
something=20
>which I cannot work through right now. So now I have said more than I =
>wanted to because I don't know enough to say anything particularly =
helpful.=20
>I simply think that Chris H.'s project is nothing like Capital, but =
might be=20
>better understood and/or critiqued if thought of as something more =
like a=20
>workers' inquiry. I have been interested in the latter for years now =
and=20
>have been very interested in the Kolinko folks' own work in this =
realm.=20
>=20
>Now I shut up.=20
>Cheers,=20
>Chris=20
>"In a world which really is topsy-turvy, the true is a moment of the=20
>false." - Debord=20
>----- Original Message -----=20
>From: "Nate Holdren"=20
>To:=20
>Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:20 AM=20
>Subject: Re: AUT: cognitive mapping=20
>=20
>=20
> > Hi Chris (Wright)-=20
> > I don't have it in front of me, but I'm pretty sure I remember =
_Reading=20
> > Capital Politically_ talking somewhat about economists in service =
of=20
>capital=20
> > reading Marx and getting insights into capitalist policy making. I =
agree=20
> > that Capital didn't give specific info on the functioning or =
recuperation=20
>of=20
> > revolutionaries, it did provide some insights for the stewards of =
capital.=20
> > Personally I think it's easy to make too much of the fear of =
recuperation.=20
> > There's a bit somewhere where Benjamin talks about creating work =
that is=20
>of=20
> > absolutely no use to fascists. I can understand the impulse but am =
>doubtful=20
> > as to its possibility. I'm less concerned with being co-opted than =
I am=20
>with=20
> > understanding how to make my own (individual and collective) =
projects=20
> > recreate as little as possible of the power structures in society =
and be=20
>as=20
> > effective in opposing capitalism as possible.=20
> >=20
> > Nate=20
> >=20
> > >From: cwright=20
> > >Reply-To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > >To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > >Subject: Re: AUT: cognitive mapping=20
> > >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:48:50 -0500=20
> > >=20
> > >Michael,=20
> > >=20
> > >Capital was a critique of political economy. To the extent that=20
>capital's=20
> > >minions read it as an economics text, as most post-Marx Marxism =
has done,=20
> > >they have gotten nothing out of it. Capital the book didn't give=20
>capital's=20
> > >minions specific insights into the functioning and means of =
recuperating=20
> > >revolt and revolutionaries. Big difference from what is being =
talked=20
>about=20
> > >here, regardless of whether or not anyone agrees or disagrees =
with the=20
> > >cognitive mapping project.=20
> > >=20
> > >Cheers,=20
> > >Chris=20
> > >"In a world which really is topsy-turvy, the true is a moment of =
the=20
> > >false." - Debord=20
> > >=20
> > >Miachael wrote:=20
> > >=20
> > > > I'm finding a lot of these arguments against cognitive=20
> > > > mapping, because it could help the ruling class, to be=20
> > > > somewhat bizarre.=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > By this logic, Marx shouldn't have written Capital,=20
> > > > because Capital has been (generally speaking) more=20
> > > > useful to the ruling class (up till now), than to the=20
> > > > liberatory project.=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > _________________________________________________________________=20
> > Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.=20
> > http://www.hotmail.com=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---=20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here
--- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---=20
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C22831.1F189B10
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Chris(h)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One of the back issues of Common Sense =
had an=20
article called "No Politics without Inquiry" (I'll look it up), and of =
course=20
there is Marx's own notes on a possible workers' inquiry from, I think, =
the=20
1870's. Its on marxists.org.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Chris(w)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>"In a world which really is topsy-turvy, the true is a moment of =
the=20
false." - Debord</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dmunkah@xxxxxxxxxxx href=3D"mailto:munkah@xxxxxxxxxxx";>Chris =
Hurl</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Daut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
=
href=3D"mailto:aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxx=
age.virginia.edu</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 10, 2002 =
4:11=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: AUT: cognitive =
mapping</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Hey Chris,<BR><BR>Thanks for the feedback.</P>
<P>I am very interested in these worker's inquiries of which you=20
speak... Can you recommend any books/articles on this topic?</P>
<P>chris(h)</P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: cwright <CWRIGHT@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxx=
age.virginia.edu</A>=20
<DIV></DIV>>To: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxx=
age.virginia.edu</A>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: AUT: cognitive mapping=20
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:52:50 -0500=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Hey Nate,=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>I'm just gonna say that insight into how capital works =
and=20
aspects of policy=20
<DIV></DIV>>is still not the same as giving insight into the =
psychological=20
processes of=20
<DIV></DIV>>revolutionaries in order to better manipulate them. =
However, I=20
really don't=20
<DIV></DIV>>have an opinion on this whole cognitive mapping idea in =
the=20
first place.=20
<DIV></DIV>>How different is it, for example, from a kind of =
workers'=20
inquiry project?=20
<DIV></DIV>>The intent of the workers' inquiry involved getting =
people=20
active in=20
<DIV></DIV>>understanding their own oppression, but not under the=20
assumption that they=20
<DIV></DIV>>were passive, but that the kind of knowledge generated =
was also=20
an activity=20
<DIV></DIV>>which informed and assisted the workers interviewed and =
helped=20
build links=20
<DIV></DIV>>between 'non-revolutionary workers' and =
revolutionaries. At the=20
sime time,=20
<DIV></DIV>>such a project could be all too useful for capital, but =
its a=20
matter of what=20
<DIV></DIV>>the intent is, in the way that Freiere's pedagogy was =
about=20
creating the=20
<DIV></DIV>>feeling among the peasants he worked with that their =
thoughts=20
mattered and=20
<DIV></DIV>>that the fact that they thought mattered. Of course, =
that might=20
be more=20
<DIV></DIV>>consciousness mongering...=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>But when the term is put as a kind of 'cognitive =
mapping', I'm=20
just not sure=20
<DIV></DIV>>what of make of it. 'Mapping' already seems to be a=20
philosophically errant=20
<DIV></DIV>>process, such as mapping concepts to objects, which =
already=20
puts the=20
<DIV></DIV>>concepts outside the objects and is laden with huge =
problems.=20
Maybe this is=20
<DIV></DIV>>cool with the Deleuzians (though a philosophy of =
immanence=20
would seem to not=20
<DIV></DIV>>welcome this either, possibly), but for Hegelian =
Marxists this=20
should=20
<DIV></DIV>>already smack of problems. But its only a feeling, a =
hinting at=20
something=20
<DIV></DIV>>which I cannot work through right now. So now I have =
said more=20
than I=20
<DIV></DIV>>wanted to because I don't know enough to say anything=20
particularly helpful.=20
<DIV></DIV>>I simply think that Chris H.'s project is nothing like =
Capital,=20
but might be=20
<DIV></DIV>>better understood and/or critiqued if thought of as =
something=20
more like a=20
<DIV></DIV>>workers' inquiry. I have been interested in the latter =
for=20
years now and=20
<DIV></DIV>>have been very interested in the Kolinko folks' own =
work in=20
this realm.=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Now I shut up.=20
<DIV></DIV>>Cheers,=20
<DIV></DIV>>Chris=20
<DIV></DIV>>"In a world which really is topsy-turvy, the true is a =
moment=20
of the=20
<DIV></DIV>>false." - Debord=20
<DIV></DIV>>----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV></DIV>>From: "Nate Holdren" <NATEHOLDREN@xxxxxxxxxxx>
<DIV></DIV>>To: <AUT-OP-SY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<DIV></DIV>>Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:20 AM=20
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: AUT: cognitive mapping=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> > Hi Chris (Wright)-=20
<DIV></DIV>> > I don't have it in front of me, but I'm pretty =
sure I=20
remember _Reading=20
<DIV></DIV>> > Capital Politically_ talking somewhat about =
economists in=20
service of=20
<DIV></DIV>>capital=20
<DIV></DIV>> > reading Marx and getting insights into capitalist =
policy=20
making. I agree=20
<DIV></DIV>> > that Capital didn't give specific info on the =
functioning=20
or recuperation=20
<DIV></DIV>>of=20
<DIV></DIV>> > revolutionaries, it did provide some insights for =
the=20
stewards of capital.=20
<DIV></DIV>> > Personally I think it's easy to make too much of =
the fear=20
of recuperation.=20
<DIV></DIV>> > There's a bit somewhere where Benjamin talks =
about=20
creating work that is=20
<DIV></DIV>>of=20
<DIV></DIV>> > absolutely no use to fascists. I can understand =
the=20
impulse but am=20
<DIV></DIV>>doubtful=20
<DIV></DIV>> > as to its possibility. I'm less concerned with =
being=20
co-opted than I am=20
<DIV></DIV>>with=20
<DIV></DIV>> > understanding how to make my own (individual and=20
collective) projects=20
<DIV></DIV>> > recreate as little as possible of the power =
structures in=20
society and be=20
<DIV></DIV>>as=20
<DIV></DIV>> > effective in opposing capitalism as possible.=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > Nate=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >From: cwright <CWRIGHT@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<DIV></DIV>> > >Reply-To: =
aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >To: aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Subject: Re: AUT: cognitive mapping=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:48:50 -0500=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Michael,=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Capital was a critique of political economy. =
To the=20
extent that=20
<DIV></DIV>>capital's=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >minions read it as an economics text, as most =
post-Marx Marxism has done,=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >they have gotten nothing out of it. Capital =
the book=20
didn't give=20
<DIV></DIV>>capital's=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >minions specific insights into the =
functioning and=20
means of recuperating=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >revolt and revolutionaries. Big difference =
from what=20
is being talked=20
<DIV></DIV>>about=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >here, regardless of whether or not anyone =
agrees or=20
disagrees with the=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >cognitive mapping project.=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Cheers,=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Chris=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >"In a world which really is topsy-turvy, the =
true is=20
a moment of the=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >false." - Debord=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Miachael wrote:=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > > > I'm finding a lot of these arguments =
against=20
cognitive=20
<DIV></DIV>> > > > mapping, because it could help the =
ruling=20
class, to be=20
<DIV></DIV>> > > > somewhat bizarre.=20
<DIV></DIV>> > > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > > > By this logic, Marx shouldn't have =
written=20
Capital,=20
<DIV></DIV>> > > > because Capital has been (generally =
speaking)=20
more=20
<DIV></DIV>> > > > useful to the ruling class (up till =
now), than=20
to the=20
<DIV></DIV>> > > > liberatory project.=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > > --- from list =
aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
---=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
_________________________________________________________________=20
<DIV></DIV>> > Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN =
Hotmail.=20
<DIV></DIV>> > http://www.hotmail.com=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > --- from list =
aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> --- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx --- =
<DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=3Dall>
<HR>
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <A=20
href=3D"http://g.msn.com/1HM1ENCA/c157??PI=3D44318";>Click =
Here</A><BR>--- from=20
list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx --- =
</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C22831.1F189B10--
--- from list aut-op-sy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---
- Thread context:
- Re: AUT: cognitive mapping, (continued)
- Re: AUT: cognitive mapping,
Chris Hurl Wed 10 Jul 2002, 09:13 GMT
- Re: AUT: cognitive mapping,
Nate Holdren Wed 10 Jul 2002, 15:20 GMT
- Re: AUT: cognitive mapping,
cwright Wed 10 Jul 2002, 20:52 GMT
- Re: AUT: cognitive mapping,
Chris Hurl Wed 10 Jul 2002, 21:11 GMT
- Re: AUT: cognitive mapping,
cwright Wed 10 Jul 2002, 21:44 GMT
- Re: AUT: cognitive mapping,
k karrow Thu 11 Jul 2002, 14:16 GMT
- Re: AUT: cognitive mapping,
John Holloway Thu 11 Jul 2002, 14:17 GMT
- Re: AUT: cognitive mapping,
Nate Holdren Thu 11 Jul 2002, 14:31 GMT
- Re: AUT: cognitive mapping,
Dave Graham Thu 11 Jul 2002, 16:07 GMT
[ Other Periods
| Other mailing lists
| Search
]