Re: [A-List] Venezuela and the Latin American "New Left"

["tony black" <tal@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

....Well, so much for measured responses..

I seem to remember a directive of sorts coming from the moderators (ringing
in the New Year so to speak) to remember the virtues of tolerance and the
civil exchange of difference.

I see none of that here, merely hysterical retorts and puerile, ad hominem
attacks (even if they be to a pseudonym).

First, let me say to Nestor that it was entirely useless to attack 'Grok'
personally, as it was clearly a forwarded message..i.e. Grok didn't send it.
I did. ....So if anyone bears responsibility for any conceivable  'faux
pas', it is I.

Now as far as for my decision to forward not only the article but Grok's
comments: this may or may not have been appropriate. If the moderators deem
it not, I'm not going to argue the point. It's really not that big a deal to
me. Thus, a simple, "That's not appropriate.." would have done fine. I would
have said, "Alright mate, copy."

As for Nestor's reply, I can sympathize with his feelings on the matter, but
not his expression of them....i.e. "Scum"?.....(In truth, when I opened up
Michael's reply I half expected it was going to contain an admonishment for
such scurrilous language. Imagine my surprise!)

As for the ad hominem attack on the pseudonym 'Grok' (derived from the old
comic 'B.C.' I gather)...the person behind the mask chooses to use this
pseudonym because he is a member of a high profile direct action
anti-poverty group here in Ontario and believes (rightly or wrongly) that he
is under targeted surveillance by the police.

As for why I decided to include the comments: I thought Grok's comments on
the historical failings of union and social democratic leadership in the
Americas to be generally true..and characteristically colourful.

I thought his reminder of Lula's failings also to be faithful to the facts
(as many of the articles and essays on this list have, in the past, amply
attested to)...Now as for his off-the- cuff remarks on the leadership of
Uruguay...well, I allowed that through *precisely* to invite
discussion....ie So that it could find its forum and someone like Nestor
could inform me of the contrary with something like, "Hey, this fellow Grok
is talking rubbish, and I'll tell you why....blah, blah, blah.)

That Lula is a bit of a sell-out, that union leaderships have thematically
(if not uniformly) sold out the more radical aspirations of their grassroots
memberships, and that many a 'social democrat' gov't has been little more
than petty bourgeois scam seems to me, highly uncontroversial.

As for Uruguay in particular, I'm all ears to learn....

Let me say, finally, that in the future I shall not include Grok's prefaces
to muddy/grace any re-forwarded articles...Not because I've been convinced
by reasoned argument of their inadequacy - there was precious little of that
here - but out of respect to Grok who, after all, is not a part of this list
and is thus not available to (as he is more than capable of doing) defend
himself.

Tony






----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Keaney" <michael.keaney@xxxxxx>
To: "The A-List" <a-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [A-List] Venezuela and the Latin American "New Left"


Néstor writes:

Of course, Uruguay will not reach "socialism" alone.  "Socialism in a
single country" is not exactly what one should expect.  But what
about trying socialism at Mr. Grok's country, first and foremost.

------

"Grok" sounds like the sort of sound you might make if you were suffering
from an excess of gas. Certainly we have met its internet equivalent.

I was going to leave this, but Néstor is well-placed to remind the list that
pompous purist prattle of the Grok variety is not welcome here, where we
learn about Latin American struggle from those best placed to inform us
about it.

Michael