RE: [A-List] Fw: Autobiographical Writing For Reality: It's A Da mn Good Thing For All Of Us

["Craven, Jim" <jcraven@xxxxxxxxx>]

Jim Farmelant wrote:

The same can very well said for the Roman Catholic Church,
the Anglican Church, the mainline Protestant denominations,
and indeed most forms of organized religion, period.  In fact,
I would be hard put to think of an established religious sect
for which the things that you said about Mormonism would
not be applicable to it as well.  Off the top of my head,
the only exceptions that I can think of, are the Unitarians
and the Quakers.  Almost every other form of organized
religion, is afflicted to the core, with racism, sexism,
homophobia, authoritarianism, prot-fascist tendencies,
deceit,  and apologetics for genocide.  As you well
know, virtually every major Christian church (Catholics,
Anglicans or Episcopalians, and mainline Protestants
were involved in the operations of boarding schools
which were designed to systematically strip American
Indian children of their cultural heritages, and which
often subjected them to the most unspeakable forms
of abuse.

By your criteria, it would be virtually impossible for
Marxists to work with, or to attempt to organize
Catholics on behalf of progressive causes, since
after all your characterization of the Mormons is
almost equally applicable to the Catholic Church.
Marxists would have to cease supporting republicanism
in Ireland, and give up on organizing Latin American
Catholics to resist US imperialism.

In reality, Marxists, as materialists, know that although
religion is a very important part of the ideological
superstructure, it is just one factor, albeit an important
one in shaping people's political allegiences.  Working
class Mormons (or Catholics for that matter) might
well be influenced by their church to adopt reactionary
political stances, but other forces, such as their
experiences as workers, who constantly experience
the fact of exploitation by capital, might well  influence
their politics in a different and more progressive direction.

Response (Jim C): What Jim says about the other orgnaized religions is true
up to a point. Certainly the hierarchies in the above mentioned institutions
are largely reactionary in thought and deed. But there are some important
differences. In the Mormon literature, the Book of Mormon and beyond (stuff
only the insiders and totally indoctrinated get to see) there is a level of
explicit/intrinsic racism, sexism, homophobia way beyond what can be
found/twisted in the New and Old Testiments for reactionary purposes.
Something like "liberation theology", guided by another interpretation of
"The Gospel" that guided the likes of Archbishop Romero or Camillo Torres is
simply impossible in the Mormon cult. Further, their secular activies,
influences and doctrines are again on another level beyond the usual
reactionary forms or interpretations of organized religion. Where many have
taken progressive stances against the hierarchies of their churches and were
still not excommunicated for doing so, in the Mormon cult, not only do you
get excommunicated, you may also get a campaign of terror directed against
you for any supposed apostasy or heresy as has been the case in many
documented cases.

Jim F wrote:

>The evidence is overwhelming, from their own
> writings and
> mouths and from those who have left them, and experiences with
> individual
> Mormons has nothing to do with the essence of Mormonism

And what would this "essence" be?  I think that we are
in danger here of falling into idealist errors.

The essence is revealed in their own documents, rituals and practices; if
you haven't read their stuff, why are you writing about what you obviously
haven't studied? This is the danger of internet: anyone can write about
anything whether they really know anything about it or not.


Jim F.

But as I understand Hunterbear, he is offering up evidence
(albeit anecdotal) that many Mormons do in fact hold progressive
political views, regardless of the politics, that the Mormon hierarchy
might prefer their adherents to hold.  In the Catholic Church, the
hierarchy is firmly anti-choice in regards to abortion, opposed to
the ordination of female clergy, even opposed to artificial
contraception,
and yet, poll after poll, finds that the majority of American Catholics
repudiate all of these views, which the church hierachy insists are
part of the "essence" of Roman Catholicism.

Jim C:

True, but the Mormon cult allows no such disagreements; anyone who disagrees
with Mormon doctrine as many Catholics disagree with Catholic dogma is
simply out with possibly a campaign of terror against them and their
families to follow. Hunter is not offering any kind of evidence and
summarily refuses to deal with anyting from the Mormons themselves in their
own words. He is offering up out-and-out lies and falsifications about the
Mormon cult for his own purposes without any regard to the effects of
spreading such lies and mystifications. His apparent narcissism and
self-promotion and unwillingness to deal with any real evidence
contradicting his personal and not-to-the-point anecdotes is reactionary in
nature and effects.

Read their shit for yourself. How about if I comment on Lenin without having
studied his works and praxis?


 Jim Craven