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[Lucio Flávio Rodrigues de Almeida <lubejo@xxxxxxxx>]

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   Lúcio Flávio Rodrigues de Almeida
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucio Flávio Rodrigues de Almeida" <lubejo@xxxxxxxx>
To: <a-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 12:23 AM
Subject: [A-List] New address


> Hi,
>
>   I would receive your messages, but I on other address:
>
>                 lucflavio@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
>    Thank you.
>
>                  Lúcio Flávio Rodrigues de Almeida
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ewc" <ewc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <a-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 7:24 AM
> Subject: [A-List] substance and rationality
>
>
> > Thanks for all comments on my last, replies follow below.
> >
> > First I will add some facts to the gold standard debate, matters that
> > seem to me relevant and important, which have not been raised, at
> > least in the several months I have been tracking the discussion.
> >
> > It seems to me that a move towards a gold standard - whether it be
> > away from paper, copper or silver, runs a risk of being deflationary.
> > And while I agree with Anne that inflation can be very destructive,
> > deflation is arguably worse.  Directly worse for the working
> > population, who get lower wages and unemployment.  Potentially worse
> > for capital owners in the long run, who can run the risks of
> > disruption, and in extremis, damage and loss of property and life, if
> > they over cook the goose.
> >
> > On 20th May Anne posted this comment to the list
> >
> > > from financial advisor Harry Schultz:
> >
> > > in my view we should fight for a pure
> > > gold standard, the old-fashioned form, because it worked! And not
> > just for
> > > fiscal reasons! It forced nations to limit their debt, spending and
> > > socialist schemes, which meant sound behavioural habits were formed
> > around
> > > those limitations, and those habits rubbed off on everyone. People
> > were more
> > > honest, moral, decent, kind, because the system was honest and
> > moral.
> >
> > I disagree with Harry Schultz about this matter.
> > And I suspect that no amount of speculative debate would bridge that
> > gap.  So we have to turn to facts.  Henry already did this in regard
> > to Anne's position - referencing stuff about mercantilism that turns
> > up in history of economics books.  But no one else did   Given the
> > facts that are available, I find this disappointing.
> >
> > So here are what I take to be some relevant facts about how honestly,
> > morally, decently and kindly people acted under gold.
> >
> > 1)  Ancient Rome - the class war began at the cessation of copper
> > issue around 130 BC, pitching the empire (further) towards a precious
> > (gold/silver) standard.  It culminated in the civil war.  Memorable
> > incidents include the battles between Spartacus' slave army (which
> > actually likely  included lots of small farmers cleared off their land
> > by wealthy monopolists) and the private army of the plutocrat,
> > Crassus.  Do I recall correctly  that Crassus crucified 6,000
> > prisoners?
> >
> > 2) Ancient China - Wang Mang took China off a gold standard in 7 AD
> > and launched the world's first full blown fiduciary  system - to
> > counteract the poverty, slavery etc that the gold system was
> > producing.  There was a backlash against Mang by traditional wealth,
> > grouped around a Han prince, and a backlash, against both Mang and
> > Han, by huge anarchist armies, the red eyebrows.  Within 20 years
> > contemporary histories suggest that 50% of the population was dead.
> > By the early 20's AD the famine was so bad that the red eyebrows were
> > reportedly breaking down city gates to get in and eat the urban
> > populations.  (A list of people involved in suppressing the history of
> > this event in 20th century literature would include both American and
> > Chinese diplomatic staff, and professors at Oxford and Columbia)
> >
> > 3) Medieval Europe.  Florence first started the move back to a gold
> > standard in earnest in Europe in 1252.  England followed in 1344.  In
> > England this was soon followed by the peasants revolt (1381) one of
> > whose targets was the Lombardy bankers advising on currency matters.
> > In Europe as a whole, civil life gradually fell apart.  The later
> > crusades were in great part driven by Christian Kings bribing
> > freebooting private armies, run by gangsters, to go and plunder
> > foreign Moslem (and Christian) populations who did not pay taxes to
> > European kings, instead of Christian populations who did.
> >
> > 4) England increasing abandoned both copper and silver in the first
> > half of the 18th century, by the second half virtually  all coinage
> > was struck in gold.  Wages apparently dropped to their lowest levels
> > in 6 centuries.  Much modern economic debate tracks to the people
> > dealing with the problems this caused.  (In my own opinion, the
> > fundamental facts of that situation are sometimes somewhat clouded by
> >  later more abstract ideas, like 'capitalism' and 'industrial
> > revolution'.  Simple old fashioned ideas about gold, greed and
> > monopoly sometimes get forgotten.)
> >
> > 5) Britain went back onto the gold standard in 1925.  Britain had its
> > only general strike in 1926.
> >
> > 6)  Me - not that important to anyone else maybe, but even so - my
> > grandfather was young before Bretton Woods and was conscripted to
> > fight at the Somme.  My father in law was young before Bretton Woods
> > and was conscripted to fight at Stalingrad.  I was young after Bretton
> > Woods, stayed home and even got spare time to read a few books.
> >
> > I do not claim any of the above is decisive.  I do claim however that
> > Harry Schultz's argument very poor indeed
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Thanks for all the comments - :
> >
> > Sabri
> > I take no pleasure in spoiling James' day by criticising Plato.
> > However, what I said was all true, and very mild compared with what I
> > could have justifiably said.  I certainly advise all to read up on
> > Plato.  He has been at the root of most authoritarian elitist
> > ideologies in Europe for the last 2,500 years, and in my view vital
> > reading if anyone is to understand 20th century ideological conflicts.
> > I would recommend Popper (Open Society), also Russell (History of
> > Western Philosophy) as critics.  For an honest supporter of Platonism,
> > maybe Collingwood (New Leviathan)
> >
> > Stan
> > Afraid you mis-read me.  I do not think war should be the organising
> > principle of society.  Plato (to a degree) and Lord Shang (entirely)
> > thought it should be.  Paine and Cobbett thought it was in practice,
> > but that should not be, and tried to change things.  I get the
> > impression that Machievelli just thought, (like Swift), that he had
> > been unlucky to get born on this planet.  Thanks for the offer of
> > discussion about Marx, but I wrote 'Marxists' - and that is what I was
> > talking about.
> >
> > Louis
> > Afraid you have perhaps misinterpreted me too - but the point is a
> > helpful one.  I can see the point you are making about the
> > consequences of external aggression. USA vs USSR.   Thinking of
> > Cambodia alone I hardly want to be disagreeing with you!  But these
> > matters are not things I have studied.   The comment I would make is,
> > that it seems to me that the cold war was used as a pretext to
> > organise what went on inside people's heads by both sides.  By people
> > like McCarthy and by Stalin.  And both sides were wrong
> >
> > Michael
> > I have, do, and will do my best to  present clear arguments based on
> > facts.  Others must judge for themselves how successful I am, on the
> > basis of my past and current postings.  I would welcome clarification
> > of what you mean by my being 'too empirical'
> >
> > Anne
> > On 'war and society' I was just adding to the material already posted,
> > which seemed significantly deficient to me.  I look forward to further
> > postings on this interesting topic in due course.  Can I add that
> > really like your criticism of the economic status quo a lot.  It is
> > just your solution I do not like, (especially as represented in some
> > of the stuff from other people that you recycle).
> >
> > Best to all
> >
> >  Robert
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> >
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